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Old 05-09-2013, 09:03 PM
 
12,999 posts, read 18,811,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
The RiverLine has it's motor in the middle, articulated section, not underneath and you can pass through the engine compartment even though NJTransit posts signs that say "keep out" . . . and i'm pretty sure that it's just a really big diesel generator that drives electric motors. Yeah, they're pretty quiet and a smooth ride.

The same type of cars (same manufacturer) are in use in Austin and if i heard correctly, versions that look more like the CityLine are headed to Denver and Dallas too (cars that are built to be FRA crash-compliant)



A lot of the riverline is still single tracked so it can only run on 15 minute headways anyway. They don't have enough rolling stock to get down to 12 minutes even if they wanted to and Christie pared back the schedule two years ago as a budget item . . . so for the trains they have and the schedule they're running they're close to capacity. With some more trains and double-tracking they would have room to at least triple the ridership.
I had the "privilege" of riding the River line a few years back, and it has some interesting features. Too low budget to string catenary, they use Diesel MU cars. Passengers have to press the button to open the door, inside and out. A big shortcoming is it has a terminal in Camden, one of the most rundown cities in the Northeast, if not the nation.

 
Old 05-09-2013, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
All of the things that dark economist said answered this question. And, fuel is subsidized.
The only thing he brought up that is quantifiable is road upkeep, and as much as some people on this forum want to believe otherwise, roads were around long before cars, and are used by mass transit as well. You can't quantify the contribution of any one driver to air pollution, oil drippings, or rubber debris. A big part of the air pollution here in metro Denver is wood burning, and no one's doing that in their cars.
 
Old 05-10-2013, 06:39 AM
 
Location: NYC
7,305 posts, read 13,451,532 times
Reputation: 3714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The only thing he brought up that is quantifiable is road upkeep,.
Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
and as much as some people on this forum want to believe otherwise, roads were around long before cars, and are used by mass transit as well. You can't quantify the contribution of any one driver to air pollution, oil drippings, or rubber debris. .
Absolutely you can. Do you really think there isn't? There are TONS of ways to calcualte environmental and social costs. There are lots of people who make their living doing just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
A big part of the air pollution here in metro Denver is wood burning, and no one's doing that in their cars.
So ... wood burning pollutes more than millions of cars

 
Old 05-10-2013, 07:54 AM
 
28,455 posts, read 84,998,543 times
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The pollutants are a serious issue.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/20/ga...anted=all&_r=0


In general terms all "fixed sources" of CO2 are a much worse problems than transportation --

Global Emissions | Climate Change | US EPA
 
Old 05-10-2013, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Wrong



Absolutely you can. Do you really think there isn't? There are TONS of ways to calcualte environmental and social costs. There are lots of people who make their living doing just that.



So ... wood burning pollutes more than millions of cars
Just because you never heard of it, doesn't mean it's not true. We have had wood-burning bans on certain days for decades here. They don't even build new houses with wood burning fireplaces any more. Many people have converted their old fireplaces to natural gas. I have to go to work this morning, don't have time to research it right now, but believe me, I will, since you chose to mock me like that.
 
Old 05-10-2013, 08:29 AM
 
Location: NYC
7,305 posts, read 13,451,532 times
Reputation: 3714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Just because you never heard of it, doesn't mean it's not true. We have had wood-burning bans on certain days for decades here. They don't even build new houses with wood burning fireplaces any more. Many people have converted their old fireplaces to natural gas. I have to go to work this morning, don't have time to research it right now, but believe me, I will, since you chose to mock me like that.
(I thought you'd like the cat). I'd be happy to learn more about it. More interested to know why you think environmental and social costs cannot be calculated.
 
Old 05-10-2013, 09:49 AM
 
2,491 posts, read 2,667,182 times
Reputation: 3388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, yeah, every subsidized system has its less tangible benefits. I'd like the anti-surburban/anti-driving people to acknowledge my right to choose.

There's not much congestion in my neck of the woods.
Have you seen US 36 thru Louisville? McCaslin Blvd thru Louisville?
 
Old 05-10-2013, 11:05 AM
 
2,933 posts, read 4,091,996 times
Reputation: 2784
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
I had the "privilege" of riding the River line a few years back, and it has some interesting features. Too low budget to string catenary, they use Diesel MU cars.
They didn't string catenary in part because it's the longest light rail line in the US so it would've been exorbitantly expensive and in part because it shares track with a freight line.

Quote:
Passengers have to press the button to open the door, inside and out.
This is standard on LRVs and commuter rail around the world.

Quote:
A big shortcoming is it has a terminal in Camden, one of the most rundown cities in the Northeast, if not the nation.
Only 4 of NJ's 21 counties still lack some form of rail service. The riverline was about bringing Burlington Co. into the state rail network.

The choices of termini for the riverline were less about the cities and more about the other rail lines they connect to . . . although any rail line in South Jersey is going to have to pass through Camden because that's the only way to get to Philadelphia.
 
Old 05-10-2013, 11:32 AM
 
2,933 posts, read 4,091,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
My example was merely that, an example, and not meant to be a dig at any group, individual or system. Costs should be internalized for cars, bikes, trucks, freight or heavy or light passenger rail, buses, gondolas or what have you.
You can't really have an unsubsidized transport network.

For instance, if car owners paid full freight a gallon of gas would be $6/$7 gallon (and I'm not including any capture for environmental damage). People would drive a lot less. In fact, they are already are driving less and the cost is half that. States are scrambling to figure out how they're going to pay for their existing highway network because the decrease in VMT per capita and increasing fuel economy are a double whammy against the gas tax.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that we're approaching the price elasticity of demand for gas . As usage goes down the amount of money collected to maintain the network goes down, the network shrinks, usage declines further, the network shrinks and on and on.

I'm not saying it's bad that car owners pay full freight but even if cars disappear I'll still want the street paved so I can ride my bike on it - and I would prefer not to go back to riding on belgian block. So if you start charging cyclists how do you tax them? A flat tax on the sale of new bikes? Not everyone rides the same amount. Do you start also taxing pedestrians? Would the people who walk or cycle less be subsidizing the people who walked or cycled more?

To take that a step further - most of the interior of this country was settled by means of huge, subsidized enterprises like canal building, land grants and tax breaks for railroads, and the Army Corps of Engineers maintaining draft depths on inland waterways. How much more expensive would it be to live in the midwest without subsidized freight? How much more expensive would food and energy costs be on the coasts?

The Romans understood quite well that it took a large, well maintained, well defended transport network to maintain the Empire. It's not a value judgement - i'm just saying that the US would look a lot different today without those subsidies and it's worth considering. Personally, I think those subsidies are currently going to the wrong modes. We need better funding and a more balanced approach but highways and most interstates (those that actually go between states) are a fundamental part of the overall network.
 
Old 05-10-2013, 07:06 PM
 
10,219 posts, read 19,114,648 times
Reputation: 10880
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Absolutely you can. Do you really think there isn't? There are TONS of ways to calcualte environmental and social costs.
There are indeed, and you can get any answer you like from them. You just wave the magic externality wand and the numbers come out any way you like.

Quote:
So ... wood burning pollutes more than millions of cars
Wood burning is quite dirty, particularly in terms of particulates (which gasoline vehicles are relatively low in)
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