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Old 12-25-2013, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,413 posts, read 37,792,946 times
Reputation: 22550

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
This is a false pretense. Unfortunately when most people move to the suburbs it is combined with a long commute. This by nature decreases sociability. Home is a retreat from all people outside of your household members. Additionally people with long commutes do not have time to participate in their community or have a garden. Suburbs are also designed to minimize incidental activity outside of the home with culdesacs and lack of sidewalks.

People socialize when they have time to do so and people they care about in close proximity. The rise of the 2 working parent household also cuts down on the social bonds. Kids have nannies and day care instead if play dates where parents hang out with other parents. Parent/kid time is spent shuttling kids from lesson to lesson or caregiver to caregiver.

Generally, people who have stressors huddle up alone in their homes suburban or not. Cities can easily encourage incidental social interactions since most errands are done on foot. There is a diminishing return as lots get larger where due to lots of space incidental go fact with your neighbors is pretty limited in a commuter suburb.

The biggest problem with low density and sprawl is the sheer amount of recourses required to maintain them. Especially on the urban fringes. And fewer and fewer people want or can afford the high gas prices or time costs of enduring a long commute with limited connectivity.

We are running low and resources and space, and people's preferences are changing away from the 2000 sqft, 1/2 acre lot in the outskirts of town lifestyle.
And the parents that are "shuttling kids from lesson to lesson" interact with other parents who are at the same lessons/activities, among other places. Also, when you're outside working on your lawn in the suburbs, your neighbors are likely to be doing the same, so you see each other in that regard (and borrow tools, etc.). Many suburbs have parks and pools where neighbors interact. Parents in cities are just as likely to be shuttling their kids from activity to activity and caregiver to caregiver, so that's not really any different; the only difference is whether one is doing so in a car (and frequently in the suburbs there's carpooling involved with that - another opportunity for interaction) or on public transportation (and how often do people interact with each other with any substance on public transportation, really?).

When I lived in the city, I drove my daughter and her friends various places (I had the biggest vehicle because I had horses that I boarded and had to haul saddles, feed, etc., around, so there was plenty of room for girls when I wasn't doing that) and I got to know their parents pretty well. When we moved to the country, nothing much changed in that regard (except a lot of times the girls were at our place because, well, horses are an irresistible draw for teenaged girls).

There seems to be this compulsion to insist that if you prefer a particular lifestyle, that no one else who had any sense could possibly prefer a different one. I've lived in the city, and in the country, and I very much prefer the country. That doesn't mean that someone else can't prefer the city for their own reasons. It's only when they insist that everyone should make their choices and move to the city, preferably to downtown, that I have problems with them, and those problems have nothing to do with their choices, really, though I may have problems with what those choices do to a city I love, and everything to do with their attitude towards MY choices.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,650,120 times
Reputation: 26646
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
And the parents that are "shuttling kids from lesson to lesson" interact with other parents who are at the same lessons/activities, among other places. Also, when you're outside working on your lawn in the suburbs, your neighbors are likely to be doing the same, so you see each other in that regard (and borrow tools, etc.). Many suburbs have parks and pools where neighbors interact. Parents in cities are just as likely to be shuttling their kids from activity to activity and caregiver to caregiver, so that's not really any different; the only difference is whether one is doing so in a car (and frequently in the suburbs there's carpooling involved with that - another opportunity for interaction) or on public transportation (and how often do people interact with each other with any substance on public transportation, really?).

When I lived in the city, I drove my daughter and her friends various places (I had the biggest vehicle because I had horses that I boarded and had to haul saddles, feed, etc., around, so there was plenty of room for girls when I wasn't doing that) and I got to know their parents pretty well. When we moved to the country, nothing much changed in that regard (except a lot of times the girls were at our place because, well, horses are an irresistible draw for teenaged girls).

There seems to be this compulsion to insist that if you prefer a particular lifestyle, that no one else who had any sense could possibly prefer a different one. I've lived in the city, and in the country, and I very much prefer the country. That doesn't mean that someone else can't prefer the city for their own reasons. It's only when they insist that everyone should make their choices and move to the city, preferably to downtown, that I have problems with them, and those problems have nothing to do with their choices, really, though I may have problems with what those choices do to a city I love, and everything to do with their attitude towards MY choices.
I think there are some misconceptions about what lifestyles are available. I also live in a very high cost region where moving to the burbs means trading a very long commute. Or you need a huge income.

But the biggest issue I have is with our development. The only housing we have built over the past 70 years is car oriented sprawl. I find the bulk of people under 45ish in my region don't want it. I also meet many people who are older than 45, the empty nesters if you will who don't want it either.

Most people I know, with families or not, do not want to live in the sprawling areas. But there are no choices for them in the types of neighborhoods they want or it costs one million dollars. We have actually taken away choice for people, and keep claiming no one wants to live in denser areas. The reality is more people want to live in denser areas and we refuse or protest building in a way that meets that criteria. And people who don't want to live in denser areas are forcing their choices on everyone else, like it is impossible to imagine people want alternatives (I have been to plenty of regional planning meetings). Homes in the neighborhoods like mine are selling in weeks. Ones in the other types are selling in quarters or longer.

Personally I have met plenty of people who have forged relationships on transit. There are several "cliques" in my neighborhood commuter bus. People who have been friends for years, based on a friendship forged over the same commute. I have met neighbors in other buildings because of this.

I also find people forging bonds over a shred favorite coffee shop or bar. You don't only need a yard or kids to forge bonds in your community, just a chance to actually foster those incidental interactions. Many communities are designed so these interactions do not happen. When my family lived in a lower cost region, people were able to live closer to work and met their neighbors more easily. Where I live now. This happens much less since most people aren't really around due to long and dispersed commutes. They spend their free time connecting with dispersed friends and not with the neighbors. Half of my fiends live and work 40 miles away, it takes some logistics for us to meet up. This is more and more common, especially among parents. We also have very very dispersed things like day care eye. Few people use the same neighborhood day care or even neighborhood stuff. They end up comuting to parents groups to start forging the bonds that may have happened in your block in years past.

Last edited by jade408; 12-26-2013 at 12:40 AM..
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,650,120 times
Reputation: 26646
I am in the middle of reading

About the Book - The Happy City

One thing we haven't talked about in the thread is how "suburbs" are starting to act more like cities. Creating walkable mixed use spaces where people can gather. There isn't a firm line any more.
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Old 12-26-2013, 05:18 AM
 
5,682 posts, read 8,752,084 times
Reputation: 4911
Quote:
The only housing we have built over the past 70 years is car oriented sprawl.
Who is this we you are speaking about? Have you not been to Atlanta, Nashville, any of the boom cities where infill housing abounds. I understand CA has a lot of building restrictions so that could provide a distorted view.
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Old 12-26-2013, 05:48 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,953,386 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
But they had to pay their taxes and debts to the bank in cash. These were tough times on the farms.[/i]
yeah, if you were able to keep your farm for long enough to tell your grandkids about how much better you had it during the depression then yes, I guess they made out alright.

That's far from typical.

It was precisely the investments (read: borrowed money) in equipment on the tail end of WWI and the roaring 20s (which led to so much overproduction) that led to the collapse of prices and thus so many small farms. A bad season or two wiped a lot of people out.

The Dust Bowl had a lot to do with why the Depression deepened and the drought in the rest of the country wasn't a result of the dust bowl - it was part of the reason for it. Farming was on the ropes in most places.

My great grandmother was a school teacher in Brooklyn through the 1930s. My grandfather was young during that period but he doesn't remember any particular hardships and his older sisters confirm that. I know better than to say that their experience was typical because the other side of my family lived across the river and had an awful time of it.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
9,157 posts, read 8,281,799 times
Reputation: 19774
I live downtown Fort Lauderdale and could not be happier.

I walk to work, shopping, dining, the beach, attractions, museums, boating, basically everything.

I drive my car possibly twice a month.

There is nothing more fun to me than to walk home from work and see a bunch of people I know sitting outside at happy hour or at dinner and wave me over to join them.

I also love my solitary runs to be the beach and back.

I know probably half the people in my condo building.

I also have famous neighbors.

I don't think that being urban or suburban promotes socialization. I think the person makes it happen.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:40 AM
 
Location: South Park, San Diego
4,934 posts, read 7,589,851 times
Reputation: 9255
^^^
You are lucky to be living in a walkable community in Florida. That state is pretty notorious for being pedestrian unfriendly other than a few choice areas like Miami Beach.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:53 AM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,635,011 times
Reputation: 1035
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueherons View Post
I live downtown Fort Lauderdale and could not be happier.

I walk to work, shopping, dining, the beach, attractions, museums, boating, basically everything.

I drive my car possibly twice a month.

There is nothing more fun to me than to walk home from work and see a bunch of people I know sitting outside at happy hour or at dinner and wave me over to join them.

I also love my solitary runs to be the beach and back.

I know probably half the people in my condo building.

I also have famous neighbors.

I don't think that being urban or suburban promotes socialization. I think the person makes it happen.

If you lived in Miami then I could have guessed you were Dexter Morgan!
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
9,157 posts, read 8,281,799 times
Reputation: 19774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Octa View Post
If you lived in Miami then I could have guessed you were Dexter Morgan!

You could not pay me to live in Miami. Absolutely no diversity.

Fort Lauderdale is a melting pot.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:10 PM
 
13,040 posts, read 15,382,569 times
Reputation: 15272
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
Perhaps it is mainly C-D users, or perhaps it is a real new wave and movement; honestly I'm inclined to believe it is a bit of both, this comes from the mindset of most posters here and the population trends in cities. Anyway, what is the driving force behind this urban trend that is sweeping the nation? People clamor for and love density, areas teeming with people, living units stacked on top of each other, etc.
I agree. That's how I lived when I couldn't afford to live in the suburbs. No way I'd want to do that again. They can have it!
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