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Old 01-16-2014, 05:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post

One Australian difference not mentioned is one of the downside of outdoor shopping districts mentioned — have to walk out in the weather, isn't really a downside but rather a plus in Australia.
It is true. Nearly every Australian town or city with more than 100k people has a ped-only street or two.

To be fair, the weather is generally good, on the other hand nearly every shopping district in Australia has its sidewalks (or should I say, footpaths) covered with those hideous awnings from facade to curb . . . err, kerb so you never actually have the opportunity to walk in the weather unless the street is pedestrian only.

Re: the weather, my feeling is that if these streets can work in places with weather like Burlington and Ithaca they can work just about anywhere else in the US . . . after all, they're being built from scratch in the form of these "lifestyle centers" which are basically just strip malls built with some pedestrian amenities and places like them have long existed in California.
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Actually this is a lot more common than you think. Even impacts bus routes. In many places there is an intentional plan to eliminate transit to shopping centers, particularly from certain neighborhoods, to keep certain people out. I have seen stories on this in Atlanta and plenty of other metro areas.

For example, locally they recently switched the bus routes. There is one trunk bus that basically runs through the worst part of town, to a nearby city with lots of big box shopping. The old route actually ran into the "shopping center." There are 2, and it encompassed a grocery store, target, best buy, ikea, movie theater (2 actually). About 60 stores were at the end of the bus route.

Right before the Target opened, they cut about 1 mile off the route. That one mile was basically all of the stores. It ends at the grocery store, but Target is 1/2 mile down the road, and there are no public buses there. The only transit option is now the free shuttle run by the business improvement district.

As far as I recall, the bus stops near the stores were quite busy, and the route also runs until midnight, so technically the "kids" could easily see a movie, have dinner and still take the last bus.... now transit sucks to these shopping centers, and the only way to go is to drive...... We have our theories on why the buses were rerouted this way...

I have also hear controversy about another nearby suburb blaming shoplifting on bus riders to the mall (which is obviously so unlikely as the bus only runs once every 30 minutes.) Are shoplifters really going to hang out for 30 minutes with their stolen goods in plain site? Come on, criminals have cars and will travel.
The bolded parts are why none of your story makes any sense. Why would the transportation authority waste its time considering any of these issues for one shopping center out of the 100s it probably serves? If the shopping center complained to the transportation company then why would they go through the trouble of starting a BID that runs a free shuttle (that apparently connects with the bus)? That makes zero sense.

You didn't cite any of this, name a route number or even a location so one can only speculate, as you are, that the route was changed to either provide more efficient service or because of budget cuts.

"Racism" is about the laziest excuse of an explanation I can think of.
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:05 PM
 
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The Ped. mall fad of the 70s was absolutely meant to compete with indoor malls in the suburbs . . . and almost universally they were introduced as a sort of "hail mary" to save a rapidly declining central business district.

Places like Lincoln Rd. in Miami Beach are hugely successful ped only shopping streets because they have guaranteed foot traffic in the form of a large number of residents who live within walking distance and a steady stream of tourists.
But then you also have successful ped zones like Washington St. in Cape May, NJ - which is tiny compared to Miami Beach and where the tourist season lasts for 4 months. http://njmonthly.com/downloads/9619/...w_Jersey_2.jpg

In the 70s the idea was, in many of these places, "build it and they'll come." But most of the successful ped streets already had high pedestrian counts . . . and I'm talking about the kind of streets where people go to hang out, do some shopping, sit outside with a cup of coffee, people watch, etc not the kind of main streets where people run into the hardware store or a pharmacy and then go straight home. Don't get me wrong though, it's essential that you have the hardware store, the pharmacy, the bagel shop, and a general mix of uses. You have to have a moderate level of activity at least 12-14 hours a day otherwise (in the parlance of my grandfather) "the punks, ruffians, and dirtbag kids take over."

It also needs to have regionally significant architecture that people can admire. Part of the reason Downtown Crossing in Boston is such a drag to walk through is because its ugly. It's essentially hulking concrete boxes towering over relatively narrow streets. The few times I've been there it seemed dark, even in the middle of the day, and like a place that people just hurried through.

The most important piece of the puzzle is that it needs to have a large, residential population nearby who is already used to walking to the shops (Ithaca, Charlottesville, etc) and for the people who drive it needs to have ample, straight forward parking.
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:09 PM
 
Location: City of Angels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Okay, I admit I made the title a bit more general, because I wanted to get more discussion in the thread.

When you talk about "pedestrian streets" which aren't pedestrian malls, what do you mean? Are you talking merely about turning streets into parkland, or actually having houses front on a walkway rather than a street? The latter is more ambitious, but outside of a few alleys in cities in the Northeast, I haven't heard about it being done anywhere. The former is just plain old greenspace.
We have these "walk streets" near where I live in the L.A. area. Of course, it is near the beach so I guess anything goes...

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=manha...,65.74,,0,5.49
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:09 PM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post

It also needs to have regionally significant architecture that people can admire. Part of the reason Downtown Crossing in Boston is such a drag to walk through is because its ugly. It's essentially hulking concrete boxes towering over relatively narrow streets. The few times I've been there it seemed dark, even in the middle of the day, and like a place that people just hurried through.
this street is actually narrower, but the pedestrian mall (part-time closure) works fine:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Nassa...0.16,,0,-14.46
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
this street is actually narrower, but the pedestrian mall (part-time closure) works fine:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Nassa...0.16,,0,-14.46
Definitely.

That's an interesting vista though. The buildings are all different heights, widths, styles, colors, etc.

I guess some of the streets around DTX in Boston look like that but to me it's the big box stuff that kills it (DTX) - the department stores, parking garages, etc.
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Old 01-19-2014, 01:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
It is true. Nearly every Australian town or city with more than 100k people has a ped-only street or two.

To be fair, the weather is generally good, on the other hand nearly every shopping district in Australia has its sidewalks (or should I say, footpaths) covered with those hideous awnings from facade to curb . . . err, kerb so you never actually have the opportunity to walk in the weather unless the street is pedestrian only.

Re: the weather, my feeling is that if these streets can work in places with weather like Burlington and Ithaca they can work just about anywhere else in the US . . . after all, they're being built from scratch in the form of these "lifestyle centers" which are basically just strip malls built with some pedestrian amenities and places like them have long existed in California.
The difference between a pedestrian mall and lifestyle center(or strip mall) is that you can park your car near the store and run in. With pedestrain malls often they tried to punish the automobile by not having parking near the store.
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chirack View Post
The difference between a pedestrian mall and lifestyle center(or strip mall) is that you can park your car near the store and run in. With pedestrain malls often they tried to punish the automobile by not having parking near the store.
I'm not familiar with any pedestrian mall that doesn't have a few acres of parking right next to it - whether in surface lots or garages.

maybe you can find an exception in Manhattan or something but in any smaller city like Charlottesville or Madison or wherever none of them function much differently from a place like Santana Row.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
I'm not familiar with any pedestrian mall that doesn't have a few acres of parking right next to it - whether in surface lots or garages.

maybe you can find an exception in Manhattan or something but in any smaller city like Charlottesville or Madison or wherever none of them function much differently from a place like Santana Row.
Neither Boulder's nor Denver's has any parking like that immediately adjacent. There are some garages within walking distance of the Boulder Pearl St. Mall, but we don't generally park there. A few blocks north of the mall one can park for free; otherwise you pay to park at a meter on the street.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Neither Boulder's nor Denver's has any parking like that immediately adjacent. There are some garages within walking distance of the Boulder Pearl St. Mall, but we don't generally park there. A few blocks north of the mall one can park for free; otherwise you pay to park at a meter on the street.
Boulder has quite a few large parking garages within a block of Pearl St.

The quote was:
The difference between a pedestrian mall and lifestyle center(or strip mall) is that you can park your car near the store and run in. With pedestrain malls often they tried to punish the automobile by not having parking near the store.

My argument is that most of the newish lifestyle centers are set up almost exactly the same as these ped malls in smaller cities. The only important difference is, in some cases, you get surface parking vs. garage parking but in either case you still have to get out of your car and walk to your destination.
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