U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-11-2014, 10:41 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
True, most of Toronto's inner city neighbourhoods lost 20-40% of their population despite still being relatively intact. The main reason Toronto (pre 1998 city limits) is not less populated than in 1940/1950 is a lot of highrise construction since that time.
I suspect part of the reason many European cities have shown losses is laws make it difficult to build any new high rises while infill opportunities are limited. Besides shrinking household sizes, overcrowding lessened. I imagine there must have been situations where you had an extended family living in a small home that are rare now

Quote:
Still, there are a lot of cities that experienced growth within their city limits mainly because their city limits are very extensive and experienced greenfield development, but where the inner neighbourhoods still lost population (in bold below).
For 1950-2010, that describes NYC. I made a series of maps comparing urban densities for the largest American cities (in 1950) then and now.

Urban Density Comparisons
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-11-2014, 11:48 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,978 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
We are perfectly willing to spend tax dollars subsidizing roads, bridges, Highway Patrol, airports -- underwriting infrastructure and operation of flying and driving.

But underwrite the cost of buses and light rail? Heaven forbid. Why it's socialism to use tax dollars to underwrite transportation systems that will be used by the poor folk to get to their service industry jobs.

Unless, of course, commuting becomes too big of a headache and the well-to-do start demanding light rail trains to get them to work. Then it's a horse of a different color.
Oh, for Pity's sake! Who has said that? I want a source and quote. Here in Colorado, we vote on all our taxes. We have voted ourselves in a light rail system, and a public transit system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:00 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,812,547 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
We are perfectly willing to spend tax dollars subsidizing roads, bridges, Highway Patrol, airports -- underwriting infrastructure and operation of flying and driving.
Not sure how airports help the suburbs; very few commute by aircraft, probably 1% of the 1%. It turns out that roads and bridges are needed by mass transit as well; in the case of bus mass transit, the SAME roads and bridges, though for some reason when an accounting like this comes up, all the cost of those roads and bridges are accounted to private auto users.

Quote:
But underwrite the cost of buses and light rail? Heaven forbid.
The existence of many heavily subsidized bus systems belies this claim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:08 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Not sure how airports help the suburbs; very few commute by aircraft, probably 1% of the 1%. It turns out that roads and bridges are needed by mass transit as well; in the case of bus mass transit, the SAME roads and bridges, though for some reason when an accounting like this comes up, all the cost of those roads and bridges are accounted to private auto users.
Buses don't use all the roads, and not all roads are useful to buses. Prior to buses, similar transit ran on streetcars, whose tracks were removed partly to give more space to cars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:14 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,978 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Buses don't use all the roads, and not all roads are useful to buses. Prior to buses, similar transit ran on streetcars, whose tracks were removed partly to give more space to cars.
Are we going to get into one of these inane arguments that roads are unnecessary like we used to have? Roads have been around a long time, e.g. "All roads lead to Rome", "The Road to Damascus" in the Bible. The "Good Samaritan" story involves a highway robber. Like it or not, roads are a part of infrastructure! And there's that "last mile" issue too, how do you get from the busway to your house?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:15 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Are we going to get into one of these inane arguments that roads are unnecessary like we used to have? Roads have been around a long time, e.g. "All roads lead to Rome", "The Road to Damascus" in the Bible. The "Good Samaritan" story involves a highway robber. Like it or not, roads are a part of infrastructure! And there's that "last mile" issue too, how do you get from the busway to your house?
I didn't say that, you missed my point. I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:23 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,978 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I didn't say that, you missed my point. I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.
In bold:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Buses don't use all the roads, and not all roads are useful to buses. Prior to buses, similar transit ran on streetcars, whose tracks were removed partly to give more space to cars.
Now streetcar tracks do require some sort of a road bed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:30 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804
The roadbed is rather separate. The bolded still doesn't say what you said in your response.

In any case, in my post I did not say that roads are unnecessary. Nor that roads haven't been around for hundreds of years. Please respond to what I actually post? It's really hard and frustrating to have a converstaion otherwise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,978 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
The complaint was spending tax dollars to subsidize roads, bridges, Highway Patrol, airports -- "underwriting infrastructure and operation of flying and driving". When nybbler pointed out that roads are used by buses too, your response was "not all the roads", and "before we had buses we had streetcars". By that, I thought we were getting started on one of these "roads are unnecessary" exchanges, yet again.

I think a public road system is mentioned in the Constitution as one of the jobs of the federal government to facilitate commerce. Of course we are going to spend tax money on it and all that goes with it, e.g. bridges and a highway patrol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2014, 03:50 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,812,547 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Buses don't use all the roads, and not all roads are useful to buses. Prior to buses, similar transit ran on streetcars, whose tracks were removed partly to give more space to cars.
Streetcars required roads too, all but the top layer. In my area there's still the "Mississippi loop" and the "Erie Loop" bus routes which trace the old streetcar routes. The roads which aren't useful to buses are neighborhood roads, mostly; all the main roads and all the highways have bus routes running on them.

My point being that
1) We do in fact have bus systems
2) Even accounting for the shared bus/car infrastructure entirely as car infrastructure, we're still subsidizing bus systems heavily.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top