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Old 01-14-2014, 07:55 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,592,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post

I think it is important to be near. (In walking distance) of the stuff you go to most often. You don't need to buy clothing or housewares that often.

I go to the grocery store, drug store and the coffee shop a couple times a week. (Post office, dry cleaning, farmers market are regular stops too of course). Most of the "main streets" in my region have grocery, drug store, post office and cafés. Some have boutiques. Others have butchers, produce stands, cheese shops and bakeries.

We'd save so many car trips if people could just walk or bike to drop their kids off at school, get their groceries and buy their sundries.
Yes, I agree it's important to be close to places you go the most often. I'm not at a point in my life where I'm buying a lot of clothes; I wear scrubs to work and have a closet half full of them. Housewares is a different story-always a need for things to run the house like soaps, toilet paper, what have you. Most of the main streets in my region do not have grocery stores, except some little specialty stores that sell exotic cheeses or whatever.

What makes you think "people" don't do their shopping after they drop their kids off at school?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoathere View Post
You're looking at the wrong metric. It shouldn't be by square mile, but per capita.
Well, there's always a way to finagle statistics any way you want.
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,169 posts, read 29,669,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
Many of these costs are significantly lower outside of major urban centers, especially insurance and parking.

OP: I think the reason you are asking is because like me, you cannot fathom why anyone would want to pay a premium to live in an overpriced, restrictive space while dealing with constant noise, pollution, high crime, homeless bums and pest issues simply so you can feel good about not owning a car.

People can pretend they are "greener" for not owning a car and living in the city all they want. The reality is that from an environmental standpoint, subburbs pollute considerably less per square mile than cities PERIOD. Excessive pollution is always the end result when you cram as many humans is possible in the smallest area you can.
You are mistaken. The pollution per person is much lower in the city than the suburbs. We aren't losing people any time soon, so each person using less is more important.
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,169 posts, read 29,669,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yes, I agree it's important to be close to places you go the most often. I'm not at a point in my life where I'm buying a lot of clothes; I wear scrubs to work and have a closet half full of them. Housewares is a different story-always a need for things to run the house like soaps, toilet paper, what have you. Most of the main streets in my region do not have grocery stores, except some little specialty stores that sell exotic cheeses or whatever.

What makes you think "people" don't do their shopping after they drop their kids off
What I am saying is that all of those small trips add up. Most car pollution happens when starting and stopping the car. Eliminate that trip in a car and you have less pollution.

On a whole separate issue, it is appalling that kids can't walk to school anymore, even when they live close. In the 70s, 60-70% of kids who lived within a mile of school walked or biked. Now that number is only 15-20%. Have you heard about the cuckoo stories if parents being arrested for walking or biking their kids to school. And schools are designed so it isn't safe to enter the school on foot?
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,169 posts, read 29,669,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
Really? From a per capita standpoint, Canada is a worse polluter than China. That in itself is a foolish belief when you consider much of the air in China is toxic and their CO2 emissions are exponentially larger by the raw ton. As for the urban/suburban argument, I can see the smog over Toronto from Oshawa on a summer day. But I guess that make it a healthier environment when you look at the problem "per capita".
But the rate of pollution per person is increasing tons in China as wealth increases and they build American styled suburbia. Combine this with lax industrial environmental policies and we have a problem. Us North Americans use more than our fair share and unfortunately we have promoted a model of sprawl and consumption the world wants to emulate.
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:30 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
What I am saying is that all of those small trips add up. Most car pollution happens when starting and stopping the car. Eliminate that trip in a car and you have less pollution.

On a whole separate issue, it is appalling that kids can't walk to school anymore, even when they live close. In the 70s, 60-70% of kids who lived within a mile of school walked or biked. Now that number is only 15-20%. Have you heard about the cuckoo stories if parents being arrested for walking or biking their kids to school. And schools are designed so it isn't safe to enter the school on foot?
Since you don't have any kids, I don't think you are the one to be pontificating on what parents "should" do.

Funny how there's practically no interest in schools on this forum, except regarding how the kids get there. No, I have never heard of parents being arrested for walking or biking their kids to school. Perhaps you could post some links.

In some communities, planners do take the schools into consideration:

Louisville Elementary enrollment generating concern among parents - Boulder Daily Camera
"Planning staff members from the district and the city are meeting in the next couple of weeks to talk about enrollment projections and approved developments, Boulder Valley Superintendent Bruce Messinger said.

"The two staffs are going to get together and visit to make sure we all have the same data," he said. "We want to make sure we're on the same page." "
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,847 times
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Regarding pollution it depends what you're interested in. Annuvin was mostly referring smog, environmentalists advocating for cities are mostly looking at carbon dioxide, which is not what causes smog (although the sources of both are similar). Mainly though, carbon dioxide spreads out across the whole atmosphere and is a global problem, so if you want to address it, you need to look at per capita emissions. Smog on the other hand mostly stays near where it is produced, so you have to look at per square mile emissions. For large cities, it's going to be difficult to do better than low density suburbs for smog, although I'd like to think it's possible (it helps if you reduce the number of people driving into the city from low density suburbs). For small cities/towns, smog is less likely to be an issue, mostly because at that scale smog spreads out enough that it doesn't matter. Small self contained cities/towns also have the advantage of smaller travel distances, even if they're not that dense, because they're small, you're not going to drive far because what exists at large distances is mostly farms or wilderness (ex Elliot Lake, ON).
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:52 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,967,271 times
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regarding air pollution, the denser parts of NYC have worse particulate air pollution but better per capita carbon dioxide. Besides a high concentration of cars per square mile (despite low residential car usage per square mile), old heating systems in apartment buildings emit a lot particulates. Another link claimed they'll be phased out soon. Cars are such a big effect you can see the expressways and arterials in the pollution map.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/ny...lute.html?_r=0
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:09 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,967,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Young professionals do inevitably get older, and most childless people eventually have children. Only around one in five women, for example, is still childless by their 40s. Many of the oldest gentrified neighborhoods in NYC and San Francisco have fairly middle-aged populations today. So I think it's inevitable that a fair number of "urbanists" will age in place (particularly if they own or get rent control) and change the characteristics of their neighborhood. The number of kids will rise slowly, and the number of 20somethings will drop somewhat more rapidly (they'll find somewhere else where not as many old heads hang out).
from what I remember of an Upper West Side elementary school I saw that had parents coming in, the parents looked older than typical parents, perhaps they got old enough they had too many ties in the city to consider moving out. The Upper East Side has a reputation as a boring neighborhood for young people, but there's enough childless adults and space is expensive that the child % is low, something like 11 or 12%. Though as you mentioned, Manhattan is an extreme example as the lack of space for a family for anywhere near a normal income is a major discouragement. [You can find a 1 bedroom on an income of $100k/year easily in the Upper East Side, for a decent size 3 bedroom? Probably need a much higher income{
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,169 posts, read 29,669,595 times
Reputation: 26661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Since you don't have any kids, I don't think you are the one to be pontificating on what parents "should" do.

Funny how there's practically no interest in schools on this forum, except regarding how the kids get there. No, I have never heard of parents being arrested for walking or biking their kids to school. Perhaps you could post some links.

In some communities, planners do take the schools into consideration:

Louisville Elementary enrollment generating concern among parents - Boulder Daily Camera
"Planning staff members from the district and the city are meeting in the next couple of weeks to talk about enrollment projections and approved developments, Boulder Valley Superintendent Bruce Messinger said.

"The two staffs are going to get together and visit to make sure we all have the same data," he said. "We want to make sure we're on the same page." "

It has happened actually.
Mom Faces Jail for Making Son Walk to School - ABC News
» Father Arrested For Trying to Pick Kids Up From School Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

commentary on this roadblocks:
The Fight to Let Kids Ride to School | Bicycling Magazine
What's Lost When Kids Don't Ride Bikes To School : NPR
Why So Few Walk or Bike to School - WNYC

I actually support this program locally, and I think it is awesome!
National Center for Safe Routes to School

I don't have kids...I walked to school as a kid when I was close enough. Then I moved to a sprawl-y place where no one walked to school. I missed that opportunity to walk to school. It was more fun.

I advocate that people should have options, choice and flexibility. And our urban design and development form do not allow for that. Those are core topics for the planning forum in my book.

Schools aren't a concern in the urban planning forum, but it is quite a hot topic in my local one. That's where I consolidate school discussions (with feedback/input from neighbors and friends). I am interested in education quality and reform, but this isn't directly a planning issue in my eyes. Routes to school relate to urban planning/design. School quality doesn't really.

I don't see any cases here where people are pretending schools aren't important. I regularly complain that developers aren't creating family sized housing in denser walkable areas. What's your point? I complain about it all the time in my own neighborhood. People move out because they can't find a 3 bedroom place, and then they move to the burbs (even when they don't want to) and then my city's schools don't have a population that represents the city's diversity, particularly in the upper grades....
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:12 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
^^OK, let's take a look at these links.

#1 is a story about a mom who made her 10 yo walk 4.6 miles as punishment. The child was afraid his mom would beat him if he were taken back home. She was arrested for "child endangerment". There's a lot more here than a child walking to school.

#2 is from Alex Jones. Need I say more? If you need to use him to support your opinions, you've lost the battle. It's an 8 page story which has been discussed before here on CD. I didn't read beyond page 1.

The Bicycling Magazine story was a wierd story about a legally blind child. The next link is a reprise of the same story, with the further statement that the school is on a busy US highway with lots of traffic. Some of the callers to that NPR show agree with the school.

The next link says nothing about arrests. It does say that the parents' biggest fear is speeding cars. And well it should be! The leading cause of death in children over 1 year of age is accidents, and in most states, auto accidents are the leading type of death-causing accidents. (A few states that have a lot of swimming pools have drowning as the first type of accident.) Auto-pedestrian accidents are included in auto accidents.

Death among children and adolescents: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...59378465,d.aWc
Pedestrians | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) (Some repetitious stuff from the above link)

Few parents will put their kids in a situation they feel is unsafe.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 01-14-2014 at 12:27 PM..
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