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Old 01-15-2014, 10:23 AM
 
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Allot of people don't want to end up with Diabetes and actually enjoy fresh air.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,769,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
I never said subburbs have less car use than cities. I said that automobiles are not the sole source of pollution in a city, and that cities are far more polluted than subburbs are. Unless you are blind, the latter should be painfully obvious should you ever have looked toward a distant city on a summer day.

It is pointless to discuss this any further with you if you are going to continue to put words in my mouth in a lame attempt to obfuscate the facts.
If you have a city that emits 2x less of the pollutants that cause smog (CO2 is not one of them) per capita than a suburb, but has 3 times the population density of a suburb, then yes, you would expect more smog in the city, even though it emits less pollutants per capita. I'm not sure if this cause for the difference between Oshawa vs Toronto, but there are also other considerations.

(1) Oshawa is surrounded by sparsely populated areas (farmland, forests, Lake Ontario) that emit little air pollution, so even if Oshawa emitted more air pollutants per square mile than Toronto, it could have better air quality because the pollution could spread out into the cleaner air of the surrounding areas and get diluted. Meanwhile Toronto is surrounded by places like Mississauga, Markham, Brampton... which also generate a fair bit of the pollutants that cause smog.

(2) Toronto draws in more commuters, shoppers, etc from surrounding suburbs than the other way around, so these suburbanites cause more pollution in Toronto than Torontonians do in the suburbs. If I had to guess though, I would say this is not as significant as (1).

By the way, this is the actual study. I haven't looked at their methodology yet, obviously they didn't put CO2 meters on everyone's cars so how they came up with their estimates matters.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store...tpc5r&8753dd3d

However, looking at their maps, for building related emissions, the suburbs are pretty good, in fact, possibly better than average. The biggest culprit are the wealthy neighbourhoods of North Toronto and to a lesser degree, central North York, and parts of Etobicoke like Edenbridge-Humber Valley, Southern Oakville and Southern Mississauga. Probably largely related to more living space per capita to heat/cool, and wealthier people being more willing to turn up the heat/AC regardless of cost. Possibly the age of homes and how well insulated they are is a factor as well. However, many apartment dominated areas like Flemingdon park, Jane-Finch, Toronto's Central Waterfront, St James Town and Bay Corridor are pretty good, although not all of them are (ex Parkdale is pretty bad).

For Transport related emissions, Central Toronto is great, and areas NW of Downtown like York, Downsview, Rexdale, Jane-Finch as well as NE of Downtown like Flemingdon park, East York and even parts of Scarborough as far as Malvern are pretty good. North Toronto, Central Etobicoke and Central North York are not quite as good but still a little above average. Mississauga, Brampton, Markham and Vaughan are a bit below average. Far out suburbs and exurbs like Oakville, Newmarket, King City and Ajax are the worst.

Last edited by memph; 01-15-2014 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,062 posts, read 102,785,508 times
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Originally Posted by Somewhereinthemiddle View Post
Allot of people don't want to end up with Diabetes and actually enjoy fresh air.
Diabetes has many causes. But that is definitely not a topic for this forum!
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:49 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,100,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

A childless poster recently asked "What should I do about schools?" I'm not going to suggest that he volunteer to take the first graders to the library, or be a "patrol boy" helping kids to cross the street safely before and after school, but I think everyone should be aware of the schools in their community. Not everyone has to be fanatic about schools/education, but everyone should be at least aware that schools are a part of the city, and that once one's kids get in school, few are willing to sacrifice their kids' education.
I think you were referring to me. As to myself, the schools in my community are on the better ones in the western part of the state. But I don't live in a big city. If I did, I'd be aware that many of the schools in my community suck, a rather depressing situation. Would I post more on schools? Not really, I'm more interested in discussing say how cities are built up or just talking about urban places in general, I don't really have much to add on schools though I've posted on schools before.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
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With the falling standard of living and increased unemployment in the USA, fewer and fewer people can afford to drive. Mass transit and shanks mare are their only options. Increasing automation and globalization will ensure a continuing decline in the percentage of people who can afford to support a private automobile. Planning for an inevitable future is only sensible.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:03 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 3,112,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stateofnature View Post
But cars are one of the biggest ones. And the studies I pointed to looked at CO2 emissions period, not just cars. They both found that suburbs have more CO2 emissions than cities. So far you haven't produced any evidence going the other way.
CO2 is NOT a pollutant. It is a natural, gaseous substance that all plant life requires for survival and growth. Without CO2 in the atmosphere, all plants would die off and the humans and animals that rely on plants for their food supply would die as well. The entire ecosystem requires a balance of oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Are students not being taught basic earth science anymore?
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,062 posts, read 102,785,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I think you were referring to me. As to myself, the schools in my community are on the better ones in the western part of the state. But I don't live in a big city. If I did, I'd be aware that many of the schools in my community suck, a rather depressing situation. Would I post more on schools? Not really, I'm more interested in discussing say how cities are built up or just talking about urban places in general, I don't really have much to add on schools though I've posted on schools before.
I'm just saying a general awareness of the need for good schools in a city is essential. I found this article while searching for articles about urbanists and schools:

Life in the City - AP U.S. History Topic Outlines - Study Notes
**The improved urban education system generally offered better facilities and more resources than those provided by rural one-room schools. Public education helped decrease the illiteracy rate from 20 percent in 1870 to just below 11 percent in 1900.**

ETA: If you look at a lot of city forums, most people moving with kids say they are looking for "good schools". They are important to many.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 01-15-2014 at 06:05 PM..
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:21 PM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,199,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somewhereinthemiddle View Post
Allot of people don't want to end up with Diabetes and actually enjoy fresh air.
So true.
Many do not understand the connection between over dependence on cars and poor health.
One thing about living in a very walkable location is I get lots of exercise without even thinking about it.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:38 PM
 
1,999 posts, read 2,940,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtkinsonDan View Post
CO2 is NOT a pollutant. It is a natural, gaseous substance that all plant life requires for survival and growth. Without CO2 in the atmosphere, all plants would die off and the humans and animals that rely on plants for their food supply would die as well. The entire ecosystem requires a balance of oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Are students not being taught basic earth science anymore?
There is nothing in the definition of the word "pollutant" that implies that a substance cannot be naturally occurring to be considered a pollutant. Arsenic and strychnine are both naturally occurring substances, but in certain circumstances are pollutants.

It's also completely irrelevant for defining "pollutant" that CO2 is needed for life on earth. It's very cute that you think you are teaching me something by pointing that out. Trust me, I am quite aware. But just because SOME amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is needed for life to exist does not mean that ANY amount of CO2 cannot be harmful.
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Old 01-15-2014, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,744,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
What are you basing this on? While public transit is more heavily promoted in cities, it is very debatable whether that translates into more ridership per capita. To be quite honest, everyone I know that lives in Toronto has just as many cars per household as those of us who live in the subburbs, and I do not know anyone who does not have at least one. While this may not be the case in Manhattan, it is a fools game to compare Manhattan to Toronto or any other North American city. Manhattan is a world class city with an efficient and affordable transit system. Toronto is a second-class city with an very inefficient and expensive transit system. There are very good reasons why the people of Toronto colloquially refer to the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) as "Take The Car".
People with access to transit drive less miles than those who don't. Even if they have a car.

Here is a case study from LA:
Residents living near Expo Line stations reduce car use, study shows - Los Angeles Times

Quote:
After the light-rail line opened, Angelenos who lived within a half-mile of a station tripled their rail ridership and reduced their daily driving by 40%, the study found.

In fall 2011, researchers asked more than 200 households in the Exposition Corridor, the Crenshaw Corridor and Harvard Park to track their travel habits and odometer readings for seven days. The same households repeated the exercise in 2012, when the Expo Line had been open for about six months.

Households within a half-mile of an Expo Line station reduced their driving by 10 to 12 miles a day, compared with those who lived farther away, according to the data.
Using transit/walking doesn't mean you need to trash your car. You can convert some trips to non-car. Cars have their place, but it is important to have alternatives instead of always having to use your car.
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