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Old 01-14-2014, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
you could also argue rural interstates are welfare for the countryside, though I-80 is an important throughfare. Cuomo's rural expressway proposal to connect I-81 and I-87 sounds like rural welfare.
Is he proposing a surcharge on MTA fares to fund it? That would be equivalent.
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
you could also argue rural interstates are welfare for the countryside, though I-80 is an important throughfare. Cuomo's rural expressway proposal to connect I-81 and I-87 sounds like rural welfare.
Cuomo's plan essentially involves uprading the former US Route 11 between Watertown and the Canadian border at Champlain, which translates to Syracuse-Montreal -- better access to Quebec and Atlantic Canada from the west. In fact, New York State already has one Intersate highway between I-81 and I-87. namely I-88 between Binghamton and Albany via Oneonta. I used to drive this route fairly regularly, about three times a year or so, and can recall that one of the largest complaints from the locals was the arrogance of French Canadian truckers, many of whom were based in rural Quebec and held down long-distance runs which took them far from home and kept them out for long periods of time. A couple of serious accidents didn't do much for their image.

With regard to I-80, this is another example of changing markets; when it was built back in the late 1960's as the "Keystone Shortway", I-80 immediately drew a large volume of truck trafffic off the paralell Pennsylvania Turnpike due to its toll-free status.

In those days, the principal cargo was industrial and consumer goods made in the Midwest and delivered by what were called "regular-route, common-carriers", -- companies like Roadway Express, Interstatre System and McLean Trucking, to cite a few. These companies operated under a strict regulatory structure similar to the railroads. If you picked up a load in New York for Indianapolis, but your authority only went as far as Columbus, you had to turn the load over to another carrier who had the authority. All this changed after the deregulation movement of the late Seventies.

But the new highway and lower cost also generated new traffic, a lot of which used to go by rail. Dressed meat from the Plains states was the foremost example. In my neck of the woods, the passing lanes of I-80 were called the "Monfort lanes", after the fast-running and high-paying Colorado carrier. But things began to change again after the Staggers Act and work-rule reform allowed rebuilding of the Eastern Trunk rail lines post-1985. A lot of that traffic is now back on the rails, but in refrigerated containers and semi-trailers on flatcars.

And perhaps most interesting, north-south route I-81, now seems to be busier than east-west route I-80, at least to the south of where the two highways intersect near Hazleton, PA. This is probably due to diversion of traffic to a southerly route via Roanoke and Memphis, although more traffic to Texas and Mexico (which are not as economically-advantageous a rail market) likely also plays a part.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 01-14-2014 at 07:45 PM..
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:55 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,964,272 times
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Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Is he proposing a surcharge on MTA fares to fund it? That would be equivalent.
You're erroneously assuming that people who use transit don't also drive and that gas taxes and tolls come anywhere near paying for the roads.
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:57 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,964,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
And perhaps most interesting, north-south route I-81, now seems to be busier than east-west route I-80, at least to the south of where the two higways intersect near Hazleton. This is probably due to diversion of traffic to a southerly route via Roanoke and Memphis, although more traffic to Texas and Mexico (which are not as economically-advantageous a rail market) likely also plays a part.
When I lived in SC I would frequently pick up 81 just west of Harrisburg and take it down to I-77. The mileage was longer but it was often quicker than struggling through the traffic and unpredictability of the Philly to Richmond portion of I-95
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,095 posts, read 102,857,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Cuomo's plan essentially involves uprading the former US Route 11 between Watertown and the Canadian border at Champlain, which translates to Syracuse-Montreal -- better access to Quebec and Atlantic Canada from the west. In fact, New York State already has one Intersate highway between I-81 and I-87. namely I-88 between Binghamton and Albany via Oneonta. I used to drive this route fairly regularly, about three times a year or so, and can recall that one of the largest complaints from the locals was the arrogance of French Canadian truckers, many of whom were based in rural Quebec and held down long-distance runs which took them far from home and kept them out for long periods of time. A couple of serious accidents didn't do much for their image.

With regard to I-80, this is another example of changing markets; when it was built back in the late 1960's as the "Keystone Shortway", I-80 immediately drew a large volume of truck trafffic off the paralell Pennsylvania Turnpike due to its toll-fee status.

In those days, the principal cargo was industrial and consumer goods made in the Midwest and delivered by what were called "regular-route, common-carriers", -- companies like Roadway Express, Interstatre System and McLean Trucking, to cite a few. These companies operated under a strict regulatory structure similar to the railroads. If you picked up a load in New York for Indianapolis, but your authority only went as far as Columbus, you had to turn the load over to another carrier who had the authority. All this changed after the deregulation movement of the late Seventies.

But the new highway and lower cost also generated new traffic, a lot of which used to go by rail. Dressed meat from the Plains states was the foremost example. In my neck of the woods, the passing lanes of I-80 were called the "Monfort lanes", after the fast-running and high-paying Colorado carrier. But things began to change again after the Staggers Act and work-rule reform allowed rebuilding of the Eastern Trunk rail lines post-1985. A lot of that traffic is now back on the rails, but in refrigerated containers and semi-trailers on flatcars.

And perhaps most interesting, north-south route I-81, now seems to be busier than east-west route I-80, at least to the south of where the two higways intersect near Hazleton. This is probably due to diversion of traffic to a southerly route via Roanoke and Memphis, although more traffic to Texas and Mexico (which are not as economically-advantageous a rail market) likely also plays a part.
Very interesting! I-80 is very heavily traveled with truck traffic through Nebraska and Iowa, too. Once you get into Illinois (traveling eastward, obvi) you get into the Chicago traffic pretty soon.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:17 PM
 
Location: classified
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The whole idea that "public transit is usually associated with left-wing or more big government" is only found in the US. Other countries in Europe, Asia, and Latin America don't have that philosophy because their cities are much more densely populated and any public transit infrastructure is generally regarded as a positive thing since it increases the number of mobility options available to the general public.
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by diablo234 View Post
The whole idea that "public transit is usually associated with left-wing or more big government" is only found in the US. Other countries in Europe, Asia, and Latin America don't have that philosophy because their cities are much more densely populated and any public transit infrastructure is generally regarded as a positive thing since it increases the number of mobility options available to the general public.
Within big cities outside the US (and even in denser ones in the US) there's little difference in transportation spending between left and right. In London, the switch to the rather conservative mayor Boris Johnson didn't mean less spending of transit. But nation-wide in the UK, the switch to a more conservative government led to a more pro-car policy. "End the war on the motorist" was a slogan among the right in the UK

Easing of parking rules will lead to traffic congestion, warn campaigners | Politics | theguardian.com

Ministers described the rules as an "end to the war on the motorists" and a reversal of measures introduced under Labour in 2001 to encourage the use of public transport.

Under the new guidance limits on car spaces in new developments will be lifted, and councils will be encouraged to set cheaper parking charges in town centres.


Continental Europe and Asia may be different, but I suspect it's not rare for a pro-car transportation policy to be more of a "right" thing than a "left" thing.

*Anyone who says the poor have lower IQs is right-wing
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
You're erroneously assuming that people who use transit don't also drive and that gas taxes and tolls come anywhere near paying for the roads.
At the time, in Pennsylvania, tolls entirely paid for the toll roads and transportation-related taxes entirely paid for all state roads (including I-80). That was (and may still be) in the Pennsylvania constitution. The vast majority of people who use I-80 do not use SEPTA; a more clear case of attempting to use money (tolls) raised from private vehicle users to fund mass transit would be difficult to find. Well, not all that difficult; a look at the New York MTA budget would show the same thing.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,101 posts, read 16,155,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post

*Anyone who says the poor have lower IQs is right-wing
Income and IQ are correlated. That's not really a left-wing, right-wing thing. Smarter people make more money on average. Wealth really doesn't have much correlation. So depends what you mean by "poor." Do you mean low net worth, in which case you're correct, or do you mean low income? If it's the latter, it's just completely wrong. Poor (low income) people do tend to have lower IQs. The people most likely to know this are the smarter and more educated people. They happen to tend to be more left-wing than right-wing.

Of course, just because the poor do have lower IQs is an aggregate. It doesn't mean there aren't very bright people who are poor or that there aren't very bright, very well educated people that are right-wing.
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:40 AM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv101 View Post
Portland's public transit system is in the process of being slashed thanks to abysmal ridership when compared to the expense incurred in building it and the revenue it generates as demographer Joel Kotkin pointed out recently in the Orange County Register.

The answer to the thread title is no; SF, DC, Boston, Chicago & NYC all have successful transit systems with rail serving as the backbone due to density, as well as the fact that folks of all income levels ride the rails in those cities daily as opposed to here in LA, where the overwhelming majority of metro riders live in near-poverty level, with an average income of around $18K.
I agree and as a long time resident of Portland who has spent 35 years of taking public transportation everywhere, not just to and from work, I can vouch for the fact that the ridership is abysmal because service is abysmal and people have chosen their cars because public transportation is no longer the reliable service it once was. The expenses incurred did not meet revenue taken in because the management of the company was so poorly executed for years. A lot was uncovered last year in regard to that.

So people are jumping in their cars and bypassing what was once a very reliable public transportation system.

Even the once strict rules for the creation of taxi cab companies have been lifted by the city and new companies are flourishing. Who would have ever thought that would happen in good old left-wing Portland?
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