U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-08-2014, 12:21 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
So you agree that with out subsidizes fares would go up.

Suburbanite Reality Check:

Ride the Denver RTD Bus Routes #11, 15, 16, 20, 24, 28, 38 (and many more) then come back and say that minimum wage workers don't ride transit!
Well, of course w/o subsidies fares would go up! I've been saying that for years on this forum. It's the "urbanists" who like to biatch about road subsidies, some of them even complaining that we have roads at all (yes, seriously), but think they're riding the light rail/bus/some other form of public transit w/o being subsidized.

I have no doubt that many minimum wage workers ride transit. I have huge doubts that there are many minimum wage secretaries out there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-08-2014, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
Reputation: 12647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
So next time your waiting in line at the car wash because minimum wage employees can't get to where the jobs are, you'll have time to rethink transit subsidizes.
So provide targeted welfare. A lot of places already do that with transit since even 80% subsidized it's a burden on the working poor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
Reputation: 12647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, of course w/o subsidies fares would go up! I've been saying that for years on this forum. It's the "urbanists" who like to biatch about road subsidies, some of them even complaining that we have roads at all (yes, seriously), but think they're riding the light rail/bus/some other form of public transit w/o being subsidized.

I have no doubt that many minimum wage workers ride transit. I have huge doubts that there are many minimum wage secretaries out there.
I always call them eyecandy secretaries. I figure they either learn pretty quick or who know what happens. They don't have a long shelf life. A couple of the law firms here like to use them... who knows, they probably pay them more than minimum wage but basically they're just there to look pretty. God forbid you have to communicate with one for anything more difficult than asking for the restroom key. My favorite one was just a few months ago where they deposed the wrong witness because the "minimum wage" secretary didn't have enough brains to pass "I'm the wrong person. I know nothing about this lawsuit. XYZ's supervisor is ABC. They work at the building across the street. Here is the phone number and address" along. It's kind of the "well, it's not in my job description to think/go out of my way to do anything" line of thought. Usually you have to pay people more than minimum wage for that level of responsibility/longevity. It's a new face every time I go into that office.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 12:35 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, of course w/o subsidies fares would go up! I've been saying that for years on this forum. It's the "urbanists" who like to biatch about road subsidies, some of them even complaining that we have roads at all (yes, seriously), but think they're riding the light rail/bus/some other form of public transit w/o being subsidized.
Often, it's a complaint transit is subsidized, so someone says roads are subsidized. Or the reverse direction. It's endless and a rather boring debate, not sure why people like to continue it.

No one has suggested we don't have roads, though some have complained about the amount spending on roads. Nor has any (well, maybe there's someone) claimed there were no roads 100 years ago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 12:52 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Often, it's a complaint transit is subsidized, so someone says roads are subsidized. Or the reverse direction. It's endless and a rather boring debate, not sure why people like to continue it.

No one has suggested we don't have roads, though some have complained about the amount spending on roads. Nor has any (well, maybe there's someone) claimed there were no roads 100 years ago.
On this forum, the convo almost always, say 99.9% of the time starts out, "My God! We are subsidizing ROADS! The gas tax those suburban swine (and just who are "suburban" now?) pay does not cover 100% of the cost of roads in the suburbs (whatever they might be)! I'm tired of supporting this wasteful, immoral lifestyle!" You know you've seen this stuff.

I've been in several, ah, "discussions" with people about roads. I've had to point out we've always had roads when some whine about how roads are some new phenomenon.

Anyway, then someone brings up that hey, transit is subsidized, too, sometimes heavily.

Actually, there are several separate gas taxes, federal, state and local taxes. Federal taxes go to the feds, state taxes go to the state, where they may be used on any project anywhere in the state including cities, and local tax goes to the locality.

Gasoline tax information - Colorado Gas Prices
Fuel taxes in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (A little simplistic, but general information.)

ETA: The thread title is "Have we been subsidizing sprawl?" not "Have we been subsidizing transit".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,681,041 times
Reputation: 26671
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
where do you get that idea? That's transit for not much more than a long walk.
I red these stats somewhere. Perhaps it was in human transit.

The average rides are actually pretty short. 1-2 miles is a 20-40 minute walk. The bus is faster. Even though you can do a long walk for fun, there are plenty of times where you don't have time to do that. People usually like to keep their walking distance to under 1/2 a mile if they have places to be.

You don't always have time to walk that far, but the time can be very comparable to driving and parking for bus rides in that 1-2 mile range.

Over around 3 miles, bus rides vs car rides are much worst. Then you might as well drive if you have the choice. Everyone has a different calculation on how much more time they are willing to spend on transit vs driving. Typically that is around 1.5-2x more than the comparable drive.

1 mile on a bus is generally 8-15 minutes.
2 miles is typically 15-20
3 miles is about 25 minutes.
5 miles on a city bus is about 40-45 minutes (rapid buses, limited stops are faster)

The ratio stops working out. This is why BRT is helpful, it cuts down those longer trips....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,386 posts, read 59,868,870 times
Reputation: 54029
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
"Choice riders" rarely ride more than 1-2 miles via transit (outside of commuter rail of course)
Choice riders, in my experience, are usually downtown office workers, who ride anywhere from 2 to 20 miles (some longer!) on the bus. I'm pretty sure the people I see standing at the bus stops every morning have cars in their garages; I know the people who drive to the lot at the commuter rail stations do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Over around 3 miles, bus rides vs car rides are much worst. Then you might as well drive if you have the choice. Everyone has a different calculation on how much more time they are willing to spend on transit vs driving.
Don't forget to add in the variable of parking, which, if you are a downtown office worker, can be prohibitively expensive or inconvenient.

Most of the people I know who work downtown avoid driving to work because of parking issues, not traffic or time concerns.

I'll use my own commuting history to illustrate: When I lived in Cincinnati, I had three different jobs in three different locations around downtown Cincinnati. Two of the three had dedicated parking lots or easily available street parking; the third did not. And while that third employer contributed toward my parking, the most accessible lot was still farther away from the office than the bus stop. As a result, I took the bus unless I needed the car that day for work or needed to go somewhere directly after work.

Probably 80 percent of the people I worked with at that third employer took the bus because of the parking issue; at the other workplaces, the opposite.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,681,041 times
Reputation: 26671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Choice riders, in my experience, are usually downtown office workers, who ride anywhere from 2 to 20 miles (some longer!) on the bus. I'm pretty sure the people I see standing at the bus stops every morning have cars in their garages; I know the people who drive to the lot at the commuter rail stations do.


Don't forget to add in the variable of parking, which, if you are a downtown office worker, can be prohibitively expensive or inconvenient.

Most of the people I know who work downtown avoid driving to work because of parking issues, not traffic or time concerns.

I'll use my own commuting history to illustrate: When I lived in Cincinnati, I had three different jobs in three different locations around downtown Cincinnati. Two of the three had dedicated parking lots or easily available street parking; the third did not. And while that third employer contributed toward my parking, the most accessible lot was still farther away from the office than the bus stop. As a result, I took the bus unless I needed the car that day for work or needed to go somewhere directly after work.

Probably 80 percent of the people I worked with at that third employer took the bus because of the parking issue; at the other workplaces, the opposite.
I probably should have clarified, as in outside of commute times. The transit math is pretty easy during a commute if you work downtown.....

But this is a really good article about the rise of off-peak transit.
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...ortation/8311/

I don't take transit to work any more (no convenient options for me), but I choose it sometimes on the weekend or evenings. The decision depends on parking availability, parking price, and my intent. Like on first Fridays, parking is a pain, so I walk or take the bus down and cab/uber take the bus home. There is a side benefit I can have more cocktails. . Tonight I am going downtown but it is raining, and the bus with the most frequent service to downtown is about .4 miles away. Parking should be easy, and I can pick up my sister on the way..so I'll drive. I'll probably ride my bike to the gym (downtown) tomorrow...and not drive... I usually walk or bike to the farmers market...so I don't have to circle for parking. It is very malleable. (I got a bike about 3 months ago, so I have been converting more and more trips to the bike).

My sister doesn't drive at all so she only gets in a car if she ubers or I give her a ride....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,681,041 times
Reputation: 26671
Over the past few years, I have seen more and more "young people" read this as 20-something's bar hopping, on transit all nights of the week over the past 5 years in my neighborhood and downtown. And lots of people biking too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,436 posts, read 11,933,106 times
Reputation: 10542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Most of the people I know who work downtown avoid driving to work because of parking issues, not traffic or time concerns.

I'll use my own commuting history to illustrate: When I lived in Cincinnati, I had three different jobs in three different locations around downtown Cincinnati. Two of the three had dedicated parking lots or easily available street parking; the third did not. And while that third employer contributed toward my parking, the most accessible lot was still farther away from the office than the bus stop. As a result, I took the bus unless I needed the car that day for work or needed to go somewhere directly after work.

Probably 80 percent of the people I worked with at that third employer took the bus because of the parking issue; at the other workplaces, the opposite.
The same is true in Pittsburgh. Roughly equal numbers of people commute to downtown via bus or light rail as drive, because parking is scarce (and expensive).

This is exactly the reason why if your goal as a city is to have a financially sustainable transit system, you shouldn't continue to expand the number of parking spaces in downtown.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top