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Old 01-24-2014, 03:14 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Of the dozen or so cities I have lived in, plus the many more I have visited and spent time in, none have random businesses scattered throughout the residential neighborhoods. What would be the purpose of that? Isn't it better for the businesses to attract customers from a wider area than a small residential neighborhood? Isn't it better for the consumer to be able to do all or most of their shopping in a few central areas, rather than having to go all over town? Why buy your shoes in one residential neighborhood, then go to another to buy a pair of pants, maybe another for a shirt (b/c there are no shirt stores near the shoe/pants stores or you don't like the shirts they have), etc?

Most places where I've lived also allow home businesses, but limit the number of employees they can have to anywhere from 0-2 or so. Who wants a lot of cars coming into a neighborhood to buy bread (as in the article) or shoes, or whatever. Day care centers are allowed in many residential neighborhoods, and generally people can do day care in their own homes. The licensing regs do limit the number of kids/adult.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,371 posts, read 59,807,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
The problem is most strip malls are stupidly pedestrian unfriendly, that people drive over to the other side instead of walking over, when with tiny small tweaks, it could still be car and per friendly.
Most strip shopping centers I'm acquainted with are built in, well, a strip, and are edged with sidewalks along the front face. Is that not pedestrian friendly?

Quote:
The metric that I am discussing is let's call it spend in the community. I don't have the metric handy right now, but a locally owned business ends up spending way more in local communities directly and indirectly. A chin retailer circulates about 13% of its revenue in the local economy. An indie circulates 40%. Huge difference! This is pretty replicable in all sorts of communities across the country.
Here is a study on this: AMIBA | Local Multiplier Effect
I'm wondering what this study considers "revenue"? Since most of the expense for any business is salary, I'd think the chains would return more to the community because they generally have more employees - Home Depot vs. the locally owned department store, for instance.
Quote:
And oddly enough, new buildings have sprung up near these abandoned buildings....
I'd agree with you here - I don't understand how it possibly can be less expensive - in labor, materials and/or time - to erect a new building rather than remodel an existing building.
Quote:
I don't know if I'd call those the "far burbs" that sounds like the rural area to me. It is an excellent source for stuff if you live close, I wouldn't be willing to make that drive to farm country.
Since you don't know where I'm talking about, you can't possibly make that assumption, can you? But I live in the suburbs myself, so heading to the exurbs is only a 10-15 mile round trip. And I get to avoid the overpriced farmers markets in the inner 'burbs and the city.

Last edited by Ohiogirl81; 01-24-2014 at 03:23 PM.. Reason: errant punctuation
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:25 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,986 posts, read 41,937,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Most strip shopping centers I'm acquainted with are built in , well, a strip, and are edged with sidewalks along the front face. Is that not pedestrian friendly?
Sometimes, but usually less than traditional "main street" shopping streets. They're often spread out, have fences or other barriers between the shopping centers. The roads they're on may be pedestrian unfriendly with intersections with fast moving traffic.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,655,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Most strip shopping centers I'm acquainted with are built in, well, a strip, and are edged with sidewalks along the front face. Is that not pedestrian friendly?
I am going to pick on a few strip malls near me for a minute.

Technically, there is a sidewalk across the strip mall. But, it is organized into different buildings with different uses. And to get between uses, you have to walk across the parking lot. And the main entrances to the "mall." And you are very stressed, because it doesn't feel safe with speeding cars and unaware motorists backing out without a car in the world.

There are other strip malls that have sidewalks, but they do not offer friendly environments for walking. No landscaping, no shade. No interesting stuff.... so people just drive from place to place. Related to this is the super huge strip mall where you need to walk half a block to get to the other side. But the walk is so boring/unpleasant/unappealing you really don't want to walk.

Quote:
I'm wondering what this study considers "revenue"? Since most of the expense for any business is salary, I'd think the chains would return more to the community because they generally have more employees - Home Depot vs. the locally owned department store, for instance.
I have seen it defined in lots of different ways, and the simplest explanation comes from different areas of the business. Like for example, let's talk about the "build phase" of a store. A chain is likely going to use its favorite contractors / sources for interior design, furniture, fixtures and not a local vendor. And later when they are doing stuff like printing, they'll turn to their national distribution center instead of a local printer for business cards or fliers and so on. The multiplier effect is pretty limited, the typical chain doesn't spend in the community to build their business (obviously this isn't true for all businesses, so are really good about local sourcing.)

Now let's talk about food retail in particular. Chain restaurants uses the big huge distributor for their food, or maybe even run their own food distribution. A locally owned restaurant will use the local food/wine/beverage guy who owns that territory in the city. And even more hardcore even buy from local farmers and such. So the multiplier is way more. Like for example, my local Starbucks uses some national brand milk. The locally owned cafes buy milk that is produced locally, and beans roasted locally. (The hardcore ones use locally produced chocolate for their mochas) So it supports more jobs here.

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I'd agree with you here - I don't understand how it possibly can be less expensive - in labor, materials and/or time - to erect a new building rather than remodel an existing building.
Makes no sense. It is crazy to me as well....but you know how American culture is...once something gets old it is time to throw it away.

Quote:
Since you don't know where I'm talking about, you can't possibly make that assumption, can you? But I live in the suburbs myself, so heading to the exurbs is only a 10-15 mile round trip. And I get to avoid the overpriced farmers markets in the inner 'burbs and the city.
That's how it is for my parents. Actually the grocery store is further than the farm stand. The farm stand is about a mile away, and groceries are more like 5. There are definitely places where the math works.

For me, I don't typically go further than 3 miles for the basics. But I live in a denser area, there are tons of options in 3 miles. It would be way too far to get to even the closest farm area (it is about 20 miles away). But I have access to a couple of grocery stores that have locally produced produce for cheap. And then there are the guerrilla farmers by the freeway entrances and bus stops with a truck.

The suburbs that are out there this option, to drive to the farm stand....but the Bay Area is pretty densely developed, that the farms are pretty far on the edge. We have towns bordering towns and more towns and filling in so much you don't even know where the line is.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:11 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,986 posts, read 41,937,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post

There are other strip malls that have sidewalks, but they do not offer friendly environments for walking. No landscaping, no shade. No interesting stuff.... so people just drive from place to place. Related to this is the super huge strip mall where you need to walk half a block to get to the other side. But the walk is so boring/unpleasant/unappealing you really don't want to walk.
Many (most?) Manhattan commercial streets have no landscaping or shade, does that make them unfriendly for walking?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Broad...16.73,,0,-3.49

Quote:
The suburbs that are out there this option, to drive to the farm stand....but the Bay Area is pretty densely developed, that the farms are pretty far on the edge. We have towns bordering towns and more towns and filling in so much you don't even know where the line is.
The Bay Area has undeveloped land closer to populated land more so than any other large metro in the country. A lot of that isn't farmland. Looks like a lot of open space to me:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oakla...ornia&t=h&z=12
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:36 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,990 posts, read 102,554,590 times
Reputation: 33053
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Many (most?) Manhattan commercial streets have no landscaping or shade, does that make them unfriendly for walking?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Broad...16.73,,0,-3.49



The Bay Area has undeveloped land closer to populated land more so than any other large metro in the country. A lot of that isn't farmland. Looks like a lot of open space to me:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oakla...ornia&t=h&z=12
According to some on this forum, yes. Some feel they must be entertained when they are walking somewhere, even if they're walking to a destination such as a store.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,655,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Many (most?) Manhattan commercial streets have no landscaping or shade, does that make them unfriendly for walking?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Broad...16.73,,0,-3.49
No but the blocks are generally shorter, and there is more "vibrancy" on the streets. It is hard to measure, but it is related to the fact that:
a. most people are walking
b. there are transit stops all over the place which initiate more walking trips
c. there are plenty of "destinations" or things that encourage you to make a trip or stop or go there.

It is infinitely more pleasant to walk in NYC, even when the weather sucks, because it is expected that you will. Sidewalks are wider, people are actually doing it with you, and most importantly there is a lot of street level activity. An average NYC block has lots of store fronts and doors. So one block would have a dozen business. Typical strip malls have one huge store with a big set of double doors and concrete or a wall facing the rest of the sidewalk.

Quote:

The Bay Area has undeveloped land closer to populated land more so than any other large metro in the country. A lot of that isn't farmland. Looks like a lot of open space to me:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oakla...ornia&t=h&z=12
Lots of open space regulations around here....the open space you see isn't available for development. It is all park land. Or hills that are impossible to develop. Or land that is outside of the growth boundaries. Or all 3. Couple that with fire danger too. Terrible places for development on a large scale. There are handfuls of homes in some of those super empty hills.

The land that is easy to develop (besides infill /random lots here and there) has been developed. The land that is open is intentionally left undeveloped. Heading south on your map towards Dublin and Castro Valley, that is actually ranch land. Former and current. Dublin has rapidly developed from nothing, and is gradually building out to its neighbor Livermore. That's basically the last open patch that is developable, but the commute to the job centers can be pretty crappy. Particulary if you work in Silicon Valley.

The Bay Area has geographic limitations on development due to topography.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,061 posts, read 16,070,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Most strip shopping centers I'm acquainted with are built in, well, a strip, and are edged with sidewalks along the front face. Is that not pedestrian friendly?

I'm wondering what this study considers "revenue"? Since most of the expense for any business is salary, I'd think the chains would return more to the community because they generally have more employees - Home Depot vs. the locally owned department store, for instance.
I'd agree with you here - I don't understand how it possibly can be less expensive - in labor, materials and/or time - to erect a new building rather than remodel an existing building.
Since you don't know where I'm talking about, you can't possibly make that assumption, can you? But I live in the suburbs myself, so heading to the exurbs is only a 10-15 mile round trip. And I get to avoid the overpriced farmers markets in the inner 'burbs and the city.
Sacramento spent about $200,000 per Single Room Occupancy hotel on a seismic safety/renovation. The rooms are 215-240 square feet. It is often times cheaper to just tear down and build from scratch. A lot depends upon the condition of what is there and whether it's needed. The mall down on K Street is in pretty bad shape and there's no real demand for a mall there. It'll be another building that is torn down rather than renovated most likely.

Of course, there's the situations that make you wonder. When Cost Plus moved out of its old building into a new strip mall in a better (and larger) location, CVS/Walgreens bought up the location and tore it down and built a new one. Same thing with the CVS closer to my house. They build a new store that's about half the size of the old one and moved a few blocks over. There wasn't anything really wrong with the old location as far as I can tell. I'd think that just remodeling the front and only using half the location of where they were at would be cheaper. Who knows, maybe the owner was not amenable to that? Where it was built had been an old Michael's that had been abandoned for years and was in really bad shape. No surprise to me they tore it down and replace the building.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,655,359 times
Reputation: 26651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
According to some on this forum, yes. Some feel they must be entertained when they are walking somewhere, even if they're walking to a destination such as a store.
Entertainment is great. Feeling safe is really high on the importance list. Also, not feeling like a weirdo or alien since you are the only person to walk on the sidewalk for the week. (There are definitely sidewalks that feel like this.)
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Old 01-24-2014, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,371 posts, read 59,807,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
No but the blocks are generally shorter, and there is more "vibrancy" on the streets. It is hard to measure, but it is related to the fact that:
a. most people are walking
Well, my goodness ... I should hope so; I don't see many people flying, bicycling, driving, or engaging in any other form of locomotion other than walking on the sidewalks in front of my local shopping centers.

Quote:
Typical strip malls have one huge store with a big set of double doors and concrete or a wall facing the rest of the sidewalk.
The term "strip mall" generally indicates more than one store; otherwise, all you have is one store, which does not constitute a "strip" of connected stores. Hence the term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Entertainment is great. Feeling safe is really high on the importance list.
Silly me, I don't need to be entertained when I'm shopping. And unless someone jumps the curb in front of the store -- which certainly can happen on any sidewalk -- I'm feeling pretty safe.

Quote:
Also, not feeling like a weirdo or alien since you are the only person to walk on the sidewalk for the week. (There are definitely sidewalks that feel like this.)
Yes, and most of them are in urban areas.
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