U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
Reputation: 11701

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
What do you think "subsidize" means? The thread title, and the article title both use that word, or a form of it.
sub新i搞y (sŭb′sĭ-dē)
n. pl.sub新i搞ies 1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.
2. Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.
3. Money formerly granted to the British Crown by Parliament.

subsidy - definition of subsidy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

sub新i搞y

noun \ˈsəb-sə-dē, -zə-\ : money that is paid usually by a government to keep the price of a product or service low or to help a business or organization to continue to function

Subsidy - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

The way the author is using the word "subsidy" in this case is different.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:54 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
sub新i搞y (sŭb′sĭ-dē)
n. pl.sub新i搞ies 1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.
2. Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.
3. Money formerly granted to the British Crown by Parliament.

subsidy - definition of subsidy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
sub新i搞y

noun \ˈsəb-sə-dē, -zə-\ : money that is paid usually by a government to keep the price of a product or service low or to help a business or organization to continue to function

Subsidy - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

The way the author is using the word "subsidy" in this case is different.
The h*ll! From the first paragraph of the screed:

"What really amazed me was the lack of understanding many voiced in favor of our modern car-centric, sprawling developmenta network that was completely brought about by massive government intervention and subsidization. The free market would never have created something so wasteful and inefficient on its own."

It's pretty clear the author is talking about definition #1, and the defintion from the Merrimam-Webster, as he contrasts it with the "free market".

And later on there's this:
"In 1934, the Federal Housing Administration was created which subsidized middle class families moves to the newly developed suburbs. The Veterans Administration and the Federal Housing Administrations (FHA) mortgage loan program provided over eleven million low-cost mortgages after WWII. These mortgages, which typically cost less per month than paying rent, only insured homes of a typical type and size generally new single-family suburban construction.."

Definition #2.

And I take issue with this, too:
" Head to any community silent auction and youll see nothing but local products being offered as prizesHome Depot and Tom Thumb are surprisingly absent."

I don't know who Tom Thumb is, but at our community auctions, festivals, etc, Home Depot is conspicuously present, giving out little orange aprons to the kiddies, having free craft projects for them, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
Reputation: 11701
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Well, if the regulation really stops mixed-use development and provides for parking minimums, someone does pay a penalty - the owner of the real estate.
My cursory reading of the article was that laws "rig" the game in favor of sprawl. That's the "subsidy" he's talking about.

While it may be true that a property owner pays a financial penalty by not being able to put his land to its highest use, I don't really view that as a subsidy. The subsidy, in this instance, is a biased regulatory framework that rules out dense development completely. If you eliminate the "subsidy," then sprawl is on equal footing with alternative forms of land use (in theory).

That was my take on it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,645,043 times
Reputation: 26646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Well, my goodness ... I should hope so; I don't see many people flying, bicycling, driving, or engaging in any other form of locomotion other than walking on the sidewalks in front of my local shopping centers.
There is a distinct feeling in the strip malls where people don't walk anywhere and the ones that do. I am thinking right now about this mall, one of the first traditional malls ever. Over the years it has gone in waves of development, and is currently declining a bit. For a while there was a grocery store in the mall. Well it was in the mall parking lot, a free standing building. There was also a free standing blockbuster and a now there is Panera and some other eateries. It never once occurred to me, when stopping there, to walk from the mall to the Albertsons, or Panera or anything else. The "view" was the mall entrance, concrete, the loading dock and the parking lot in-between. I am sure the parking lot was perfectly safe, but it feels isolating to walk across the empty parking lot to get to one of those free standing buildings. And then since the parking spaces between were generally empty, you always had to look out for cars speeding across the empty parking lot.

But when walking, even in the middle of a neighborhood, I have no issues with walking a mile down that sort of sidewalk. Even though, feasibly, walking across the mall parking lot was way shorter. There is something completely uninviting about walking across an empty mall or strip mall parking lot, that you don't feel when walking on a "main street" or pedestrian urban thoroughfare.

Quote:
The term "strip mall" generally indicates more than one store; otherwise, all you have is one store, which does not constitute a "strip" of connected stores. Hence the term.

Silly me, I don't need to be entertained when I'm shopping. And unless someone jumps the curb in front of the store -- which certainly can happen on any sidewalk -- I'm feeling pretty safe.
Yes, but the average anchor in a strip mall is hundreds of feet across, and the zone between it and the next store is generally pretty uninviting. If you have a strip mall with all anchors, and no front windows or darkened front windows, it is a very crappy walk. Now if their are clear windows with nice window displays at eye level it isn't a problem. It feels "interesting" and "inviting." The entertainment isn't clowns juggling. It is the feeling that there is different stuff to look at. With color and texture. Not that you have to "window shop" but it is sort of akin to that. This is why walking in a mall is usually more fun than walking in a regular strip mall. There are benches, people, fountains, fake landscaping, and windows to view along the path.

It is 100% based on design, and can be fixed with a bit of "thoughtfulness" around what the experience is like at eye level and foot speed.

Even covering this concrete walls with public art would make a big difference.

Quote:
Yes, and most of them are in urban areas.
i find them in neighborhoods where no one walks anywhere. It can happen in a community of any size (ahem LA!!!). It usually corresponds with something like "Oh I'l just walk across the street to that place." "Why don't you drive, it so much better."

A lot of our development was built from the "windshield" perspective. And not the pedestrian perspective. You value completely different things based on your mode of transit. When you speed through a parking lot at 20 miles and hour, you don't worry about the space between the stores or structures. If you move your care between stops, it isn't a concern that you have to cross the parking lot, which might be full of medians that are impossible or hard to cross by foot. If you don't enter the strip mall at the street level, you don't think about crossing the parking spaces to get to the shops. Or how the sidewalk feels at night, in the dark, when the traffic in the strip mall dies down because half of the stores are closed. And the fact that with the medians all over the place, you can't see around too see if there are threats or cars or anything else.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
Reputation: 11701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The h*ll! From the first paragraph of the screed:

"What really amazed me was the lack of understanding many voiced in favor of our modern car-centric, sprawling developmenta network that was completely brought about by massive government intervention and subsidization. The free market would never have created something so wasteful and inefficient on its own."

It's pretty clear the author is talking about definition #1, and the defintion from the Merrimam-Webster, as he contrasts it with the "free market".

And later on there's this:
"In 1934, the Federal Housing Administration was created which subsidized middle class families moves to the newly developed suburbs. The Veterans Administration and the Federal Housing Administrations (FHA) mortgage loan program provided over eleven million low-cost mortgages after WWII. These mortgages, which typically cost less per month than paying rent, only insured homes of a typical type and size generally new single-family suburban construction.."

Definition #2.

And I take issue with this, too:
" Head to any community silent auction and youll see nothing but local products being offered as prizesHome Depot and Tom Thumb are surprisingly absent."

I don't know who Tom Thumb is, but at our community auctions, festivals, etc, Home Depot is conspicuously present, giving out little orange aprons to the kiddies, having free craft projects for them, etc.
I did say that I read it quickly. I skipped down to the examples he gave about parking requirements and zoning regulations requiring segregated uses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:01 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
My cursory reading of the article was that laws "rig" the game in favor of sprawl. That's the "subsidy" he's talking about.

While it may be true that a property owner pays a financial penalty by not being able to put his land to its highest use, I don't really view that as a subsidy. The subsidy, in this instance, is a biased regulatory framework that rules out dense development completely. If you eliminate the "subsidy," then sprawl is on equal footing with alternative forms of land use (in theory).

That was my take on it.
What part of "massive government. . . subsidization" don't you understand? This forum is full of people complaining about government subsidization of roads, for example. There's a picuture of a superhighway interchange in the article, just to illustrate the point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
Reputation: 11701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
What part of "massive government. . . subsidization" don't you understand? This forum is full of people complaining about government subsidization of roads, for example. There's a picuture of a superhighway interchange in the article, just to illustrate the point.
Did you not read where I said I glanced at the article?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,165 posts, read 29,645,043 times
Reputation: 26646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

Definition #2.

And I take issue with this, too:
" Head to any community silent auction and youll see nothing but local products being offered as prizesHome Depot and Tom Thumb are surprisingly absent."

I don't know who Tom Thumb is, but at our community auctions, festivals, etc, Home Depot is conspicuously present, giving out little orange aprons to the kiddies, having free craft projects for them, etc.
Hmm, well as for the silent auctions? Oddly enough I have been to several over the couple months. And all did have local stuff. No big names at all. At our street festivals and such? I do see a few bigger companies, but it is mostly local people. Like 75%. I think the big criticism of the chains, and their role in the community, is that their involvement will never be very "personal." or tailored since they don't have their hands in the community if you will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:29 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Hmm, well as for the silent auctions? Oddly enough I have been to several over the couple months. And all did have local stuff. No big names at all. At our street festivals and such? I do see a few bigger companies, but it is mostly local people. Like 75%. I think the big criticism of the chains, and their role in the community, is that their involvement will never be very "personal." or tailored since they don't have their hands in the community if you will.
As I said, my experience differs from yours. When K-Mart was in town, they donated as well, ditto Safeway. O T O H, there are some local businesses that are conspicuous by their absence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:31 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Did you not read where I said I glanced at the article?
No. If so, perhaps you should not have been so sure of some points.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top