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Old 02-06-2014, 05:15 PM
 
2,491 posts, read 2,666,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
The bald truth is that suburbs exist: a) because increasing populations have to live somewhere; and 2) over the years, an increasing number of people had the increased means to move farther and farther out of town or away from their workplace.
3)federally subsidized highways to get from the suburbs to the city jobs

4)federally subsidized home loans to buy the house in the suburbs
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
41,744 posts, read 74,721,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
3)federally subsidized highways to get from the suburbs to the city jobs

4)federally subsidized home loans to buy the house in the suburbs
You couldn't take advantage of either of those if you didn't have money in the first place.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:58 PM
 
2,491 posts, read 2,666,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
You couldn't take advantage of either of those if you didn't have money in the first place.
So then would you agree that subsides are not fair because they tend to go to those with money (less need)?
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,669 posts, read 24,806,479 times
Reputation: 18893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
3)federally subsidized highways to get from the suburbs to the city jobs

4)federally subsidized home loans to buy the house in the suburbs
Federally subsidized home loans generally don't exist. You have federally back loans which are available everywhere. Fannie/Freddie are both profitable GSEs.


Federally subsidized highways doesn't hit urban areas all that much. There's lots of different programs, but the Federal Highway Trust Fund really only goes to interregional connectivity. For example, if you've got 20% of traffic going interregional and 80% intraregional (suburb to city), only 20% of the maintenance is going to come from the Federal Highway Trust Fund. There may be other sources that go to it, but there's nothing earmarked.

http://www.cbp.org/pdfs/2011/111117_...s_Spent_pb.pdf

Kind of gives you an idea of the scope of dollars spent on transit. It's really not a lot.
Here's another one:
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...ding_brief.pdf

Under SAFETEA-LU, total federal spending was 25%. The other 75% was state/local. If you're someplace like California that has large urban areas, those are seeing very little federal dollars. MAP-21 is definitely swinging the other direction but it's too early to tell exactly how. The rules aren't out yet. It's kind of moot anyway. They have a bit over a year to figure out how to fund MAP-21's federal transfers or they'll just run out of money. But again, it's a small pot of money, about 5% of federal spending is spent on all forms of transportation (highways, surface roads, bike paths, public transit).

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinform...8/chapter6.cfm
The other consideration is donor/donee states. Aside from DC, which is just a huge pork fest that just proves why funding shouldn't be controlled at the federal level, the big recipient states are all rural. The majority pay in more than they get out (someone has to pay for DC, Alaska, Dakotas, etc). Effectively federal policy is taking money from urban areas (like the Bay Area where 90% of the population lives in suburbs) and shifting it to rural areas (Northern California) and out of the state. If you take a look at what exactly California's funding is, it's even more interesting. California is barely a donee state solely because we're so damn good at playing the corrupt system. We get about as much of the pork projects as the rest of the nation combined.
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:51 PM
 
2,491 posts, read 2,666,690 times
Reputation: 3388
I can see that my post was not clear but I was not referring to current subsides.
About post #139 we got on why/how suburbs exist. My point was the 90% subsidized Interstate Highway program (1960s-70s) and federally insured loans that were available in the suburbs, but not so much in the city were two additional reasons the suburbs exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Federally subsidized home loans generally don't exist. You have federally back loans which are available everywhere. Fannie/Freddie are both profitable GSEs.


Federally subsidized highways doesn't hit urban areas all that much. There's lots of different programs, but the Federal Highway Trust Fund really only goes to interregional connectivity. For example, if you've got 20% of traffic going interregional and 80% intraregional (suburb to city), only 20% of the maintenance is going to come from the Federal Highway Trust Fund. There may be other sources that go to it, but there's nothing earmarked.

http://www.cbp.org/pdfs/2011/111117_...s_Spent_pb.pdf

Kind of gives you an idea of the scope of dollars spent on transit. It's really not a lot.
Here's another one:
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...ding_brief.pdf

Under SAFETEA-LU, total federal spending was 25%. The other 75% was state/local. If you're someplace like California that has large urban areas, those are seeing very little federal dollars. MAP-21 is definitely swinging the other direction but it's too early to tell exactly how. The rules aren't out yet. It's kind of moot anyway. They have a bit over a year to figure out how to fund MAP-21's federal transfers or they'll just run out of money. But again, it's a small pot of money, about 5% of federal spending is spent on all forms of transportation (highways, surface roads, bike paths, public transit).

Office of Highway Policy Information (OHPI) – Highway Finance Data Collection
The other consideration is donor/donee states. Aside from DC, which is just a huge pork fest that just proves why funding shouldn't be controlled at the federal level, the big recipient states are all rural. The majority pay in more than they get out (someone has to pay for DC, Alaska, Dakotas, etc). Effectively federal policy is taking money from urban areas (like the Bay Area where 90% of the population lives in suburbs) and shifting it to rural areas (Northern California) and out of the state. If you take a look at what exactly California's funding is, it's even more interesting. California is barely a donee state solely because we're so damn good at playing the corrupt system. We get about as much of the pork projects as the rest of the nation combined.

Last edited by Eddyline; 02-06-2014 at 08:13 PM..
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,244,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
So then would you agree that subsides are not fair because they tend to go to those with money (less need)?
No. But why not get rid of all subsidies? Let's start with transit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
From what I can tell, the cities that had more severe decline, on average had more white flight (and less immigration to make up for it) and racial tensions. Of course there are other factors.
Actually, Pittsburgh had one of the biggest, if not THE biggest declines; its metro area also declined, and it's still today one of the whitest cities in the US.
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,669 posts, read 24,806,479 times
Reputation: 18893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
I can see that my post was not clear but I was not referring to current subsides.
About post #139 we got on why/how suburbs exist. My point was the 90% subsidized Interstate Highway program (1960s-70s) and federally insured loans that were available in the suburbs, but not so much in the city were two additional reasons the suburbs exist.
Right but we're 40+ years later and suburbs are still growing faster than cities. Those subsidies dried up long ago.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:42 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
13,966 posts, read 24,028,562 times
Reputation: 14760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
You couldn't take advantage of either of those if you didn't have money in the first place.
or in the case of how it used to be, if you lived in a black neighborhood.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:53 PM
 
5,546 posts, read 6,835,111 times
Reputation: 3826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
No. But why not get rid of all subsidies? Let's start with transit.
Great idea, but let's rip the bandaid off all at once...roads, transit, gasoline (get ready to pay $8/gallon).
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:55 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
13,966 posts, read 24,028,562 times
Reputation: 14760
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Great idea, but let's rip the bandaid off all at once...roads, transit, gasoline (get ready to pay $8/gallon).
Amen. Somehow the anti-transit crowd still doesn't realize that roads are socialism too.
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