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Old 01-30-2014, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Paris
8,133 posts, read 6,678,099 times
Reputation: 3371

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I don't find large rail tracks as much of a nuisance as freeways. Here, being close to a heavily trafficked road can give you more room to negociate when purchasing a home, not so much being close to a large railroad. Though diesel trains are probably more prevalent in the US, in this case I understand why one would be less keen to live near a rail yard.

Some Euro examples. This one raised a controversy when it was built:
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=lyon&h...,51.53,,0,6.79

Charleroi's atypical one-way ring:
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=charle...,13.07,,0,3.62

Lille has a freeway close to its center but it mostly runs along railroad tracks and in trenches. Doesn't add much disruption:
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=lille&...177.42,,0,5.02
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=lille&...,193.36,,0,3.4

Barcelona's ronda littoral looks similar to Oslo's:
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=barcel...,+Espagne&z=14

Marseille's littoral freeway goes underground near the central city
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=marsei...179.53,,0,6.57

Genoa, on the other hand, has an elevated expressway cutting the city center from the seafront:
https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=genes&...,354.32,,0,4.8
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:16 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
People criticize ideas in posts all the time. I (and other posters) wish to discuss what other ways highway systems can (and could) have been built.



The author isn't criticizing the idea of a national highway system, nor calling it new. The alternate idea mentioned is a national raod system:

By far the most compelling is his suggestion that the Interstate Highway System should have been two distinct systems: one running between cities, and another running within them.

I not sure if you're following the idea, highway systems in many places go to the edges of cities, they don't go through the center of cities. Prior to the interstate system, downtowns and inner cities were not demolished for large roads. For example, the autobahn system does not go through cities but it connects them:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hambu...rmany&t=m&z=11

Near the center but not through it. in comparison with Philadelphia which cuts through it:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Phila...vania&t=m&z=12

And before the comment "European cities are older than American ones", Philadelphia was one of the ten largest cities in the world in 1900 so its core was large. Philadelphia is probably no less dense than Hamburg as well. DC is relatively light in interstate highways through the center, perhaps closer to the first. In any case, not building highways through downtown was something that could have been but wasn't. The effects of the other possibility, I suppose, is the topic for a thread.
I am not opposed to criticism, but I thought use of the word "stupid" was inappropriate. God knows I've gotten milder deleted on this forum.

Pittsburgh technically has no interstates going through it, and it was a major city when the interstate highway system was started in 1956. A part of the Penn-Lincoln Parkway, which has long been a road there, was designated I-376 at some point in time well after it was built; ditto the Parkway north was designated I-279 at some point. But no major route runs through the city, not I-79 north/south, nor I-70 east/west. I-76, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, built before the interstate system, does not even enter the city. In fact one of the complaints about the interstate system when it was young, IIRC, was that it kept traffic from entering the cities (in large part). I-80 goes through the southern part of Omaha, not downtown. I-70 goes through Denver, but not through downtown. In fact, no interstate really goes into downtown. I-25 skirts downtown on the far west side. But you have to get off it to go into d/t. No interstates go through downtown Minneapolis, either. Anyone interested can google the maps.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:18 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
It's of course more exciting to pretend it's a national conspiracy rather than just what it is.
I think that is what I find most annoying about that article.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I am not opposed to criticism, but I thought use of the word "stupid" was inappropriate. God knows I've gotten milder deleted on this forum.

Pittsburgh technically has no interstates going through it, and it was a major city when the interstate highway system was started in 1956. A part of the Penn-Lincoln Parkway, which has long been a road there, was designated I-376 at some point in time well after it was built; ditto the Parkway north was designated I-279 at some point. But no major route runs through the city, not I-79 north/south, nor I-70 east/west. I-76, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, built before the interstate system, does not even enter the city. In fact one of the complaints about the interstate system when it was young, IIRC, was that it kept traffic from entering the cities (in large part). I-80 goes through the southern part of Omaha, not downtown. I-70 goes through Denver, but not through downtown. In fact, no interstate really goes into downtown. I-25 skirts downtown on the far west side. But you have to get off it to go into d/t. No interstates go through downtown Minneapolis, either. Anyone interested can google the maps.
Huh? 94 is basically the border of downtown Minneapolis and 394 cuts into downtown. I don't know much about Minneapolis, but I would guess that 94 runs through what was once inner city neighborhoods.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:29 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Huh? 94 is basically the border of downtown Minneapolis and 394 cuts into downtown. I don't know much about Minneapolis, but I would guess that 94 runs through what was once inner city neighborhoods.
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...ed=0CCkQ8gEwAA

Maybe the edge of downtown, although on the map it's close to a mile from the part marked "Central Minneapolis". Note bold.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...ed=0CCkQ8gEwAA

Maybe the edge of downtown, although on the map it's close to a mile from the part marked "Central Minneapolis". Note bold.
Most of downtown Minneapolis is only about 1.5 miles big, it is actually a pretty small area for a downtown.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:59 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Most of downtown Minneapolis is only about 1.5 miles big, it is actually a pretty small area for a downtown.
Uh, huh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I don't know much about Minneapolis . . .
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Uh, huh.
And? Not knowing much about Minneapolis and being able to measure aren't the same thing.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:16 PM
 
2,366 posts, read 2,127,934 times
Reputation: 1752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I am not opposed to criticism, but I thought use of the word "stupid" was inappropriate. God knows I've gotten milder deleted on this forum.

Pittsburgh technically has no interstates going through it, and it was a major city when the interstate highway system was started in 1956. A part of the Penn-Lincoln Parkway, which has long been a road there, was designated I-376 at some point in time well after it was built; ditto the Parkway north was designated I-279 at some point. But no major route runs through the city, not I-79 north/south, nor I-70 east/west. I-76, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, built before the interstate system, does not even enter the city. In fact one of the complaints about the interstate system when it was young, IIRC, was that it kept traffic from entering the cities (in large part). I-80 goes through the southern part of Omaha, not downtown. I-70 goes through Denver, but not through downtown. In fact, no interstate really goes into downtown. I-25 skirts downtown on the far west side. But you have to get off it to go into d/t. No interstates go through downtown Minneapolis, either. Anyone interested can google the maps.
I think Pittsburgh got it right though I do not see the point of I-579. I like the auxiliary routes to handle traffic into the city whereas the main interstates is used as main bypass in a straight alignment (no loops) and no need to drop speeds to 55-50 mph. It keeps the long distance travelers outside of the city. Everyone follows the main interstate and do not think twice about it because spur routes take traffic out of their way or somewhere unfamiliar.

Last edited by Phyxius; 01-30-2014 at 11:47 PM..
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:23 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,988 posts, read 41,959,650 times
Reputation: 14805
From, skimming through wikipedia articles, one of the reasons London didn't build highways near the city center was there wasn't funds; the UK was quite a bit poorer than the US postwar and had economic issues. By the time the country was richer and proposals were more serious in the late 60s, opposition was more serious. The total cost of building the expressway system would have been over $30 billion, which gave opponents an easier time. Here's what was built:



File:London Motorway Box 1960s Plan.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still, no one even considered proposing highways through the city center, unlike NYC, where Robert Moses proposed two highways crossing through Manhattan. By its combination of large size and few expressways in the center, London must have one of the least expressway accessible city centers of major cities.
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