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Old 02-05-2014, 12:04 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,974 posts, read 42,293,666 times
Reputation: 43459

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy52 View Post
Maybe he will answer you.

He has ignored me when I ask it.
He's ignored all of us who have pointed out "ice" to him.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:09 PM
 
6,180 posts, read 5,579,317 times
Reputation: 4206
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtkinsonDan View Post
I wholeheartedly agree! Using this ice event in Atlanta to demonize sprawl is the equivalent of using the BP oil spill of 2010 to demonize Barack Obama.
If one is going to use last week's winter weather event to demonize sprawl then they've also got to use last week's winter weather event to also demonize Atlanta's very-sparse regional road network.

That's because Atlanta being so overly-dependent upon such a sparse and limited regional road network is the equivalent of a large automobile-dependent metro region like a Dallas or Houston trying to use the road network of a much-smaller metro region like Pittsburgh or the road network of a transit-oriented metro region like Boston, but only without the transit.

Atlanta has sprawl and lots of it, it's just that Atlanta doesn't have the anywhere near the road infrastructure that is needed to serve that sprawl without the assistance of an adequate transit option.

Last week's weather-induced epic traffic jam isn't the first traffic disaster that the Atlanta metro region has experienced and, unfortunately, with the continued widespread resistance to viable transit alternatives by the most-powerful and hard-core anti-transit factions in the heavily-populated and politically-powerful suburbs outside the I-285 Perimeter, it most likely will not be the last traffic disaster that the Atlanta metro region experiences.

(...There are parts of the Atlanta suburbs and exurbs where even just buses alone are considered by many to be a form of extreme evil that threatens the existence of the entire American way-of-life...though many of those same transit-averse residents also abhor what they consider to be excessive roadbuilding.)

These periodic traffic disasters have been going on since the late 1990's when continued explosive population growth started to far-outstrip the ability of the Atlanta region's already-limited transportation infrastructure to handle the increased traffic.

The population of the Atlanta region has more than doubled since 1990 (from 2.9 million in 1990 to 6.3 million today) yet the region is still attempting to use what is basically the same transportation infrastructure that it had when it had less than half the population it has today, despite gaining the entire regional population of a Denver or a Cleveland.

This is a link from an article in the New York Times from November 21, 1999 titled "CHOKING ON GROWTH: A special report.; In Atlanta, Suburban Comforts Thwart Plans to Limit Sprawl" that illustrates just how long these massive traffic jams have been occurring in the Atlanta region, often with increasing severity as the region's population continues to grow while the region's transportation infrastructure stays the same:
CHOKING ON GROWTH: A special report.; In Atlanta, Suburban Comforts Thwart Plans to Limit Sprawl - New York Times

From the article:
Quote:
All summer, the city had been trapped under a hood of smog. Highway information signs begged commuters to eat at their desks. Traffic was so heavy that a single accident caused nine hours of delays one morning.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:09 PM
 
568 posts, read 826,441 times
Reputation: 1244
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
That's not how real life works. People wouldn't have been excused from work had they not gone in because of the forecast and the storm then bypassed the city. Nor would kids have an excused absence.
If you think having an excused absence from work or an excused absence from school is more important than your safety and that of your family...well how did spending the night on the freeway work for ya and I am talking about the people who did! Those children will remember that little "you have to go to school so you can have an excused absence IF the snow comes"....sorry honey if you have to spend the night away from home and family (kind of scary, but we have to do it for an excused absence). Just like hurricanes. They cannot be predicted exactly to hit at an exact time and place. Weather changes constantly....make an informed decision and take the UNEXCUSED ABSENCE FROM WORK AND/OR SCHOOL. People have to use common sense, which is sorely lacking these days.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:20 PM
 
4,097 posts, read 3,117,567 times
Reputation: 5657
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
He's ignored all of us who have pointed out "ice" to him.
Simply put, it is the fact that ice caused this event which interferes with his agenda. Even in New England and other northern regions ice still causes delays, the delays just aren't as long as the time frame for this Atlanta event.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,084 posts, read 102,830,251 times
Reputation: 33152
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
That's not how real life works. People wouldn't have been excused from work had they not gone in because of the forecast and the storm then bypassed the city. Nor would kids have an excused absence.
Actually, my district will give kids an excused absence for weather-related conditions (assuming the weather actually IS bad). But closing these schools at 1 PM just invited disaster. Parents had no choice but to pick up their kids if they didn't ride a bus. Parents who were at work had to drop what they were doing, maybe across the city, and drive to their kids' school(s). That was poor decision-making. The rest was just, well, weather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
If one is going to use last week's winter weather event to demonize sprawl then they've also got to use last week's winter weather event to also demonize Atlanta's very-sparse regional road network.

That's because Atlanta being so overly-dependent upon such a sparse and limited regional road network is the equivalent of a large automobile-dependent metro region like a Dallas or Houston trying to use the road network of a much-smaller metro region like Pittsburgh or the road network of a transit-oriented metro region like Boston, but only without the transit.

Atlanta has sprawl and lots of it, it's just that Atlanta doesn't have the anywhere near the road infrastructure that is needed to serve that sprawl without the assistance of an adequate transit option.

Last week's weather-induced epic traffic jam isn't the first traffic disaster that the Atlanta metro region has experienced and, unfortunately, with the continued widespread resistance to viable transit alternatives by the most-powerful and hard-core anti-transit factions in the heavily-populated and politically-powerful suburbs outside the I-285 Perimeter, it most likely will not be the last traffic disaster that the Atlanta metro region experiences.

(...There are parts of the Atlanta suburbs and exurbs where even just buses alone are considered by many to be a form of extreme evil that threatens the existence of the entire American way-of-life...though many of those same transit-averse residents also abhor what they consider to be excessive roadbuilding.)

These periodic traffic disasters have been going on since the late 1990's when continued explosive population growth started to far-outstrip the ability of the Atlanta region's already-limited transportation infrastructure to handle the increased traffic.

The population of the Atlanta region has more than doubled since 1990 (from 2.9 million in 1990 to 6.3 million today) yet the region is still attempting to use what is basically the same transportation infrastructure that it had when it had less than half the population it has today, despite gaining the entire regional population of a Denver or a Cleveland.

This is a link from an article in the New York Times from November 21, 1999 titled "CHOKING ON GROWTH: A special report.; In Atlanta, Suburban Comforts Thwart Plans to Limit Sprawl" that illustrates just how long these massive traffic jams have been occurring in the Atlanta region, often with increasing severity as the region's population continues to grow while the region's transportation infrastructure stays the same:
CHOKING ON GROWTH: A special report.; In Atlanta, Suburban Comforts Thwart Plans to Limit Sprawl - New York Times

From the article:
Honestly, I would not use Pittsburgh as a shining example of traffic planning.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pitt...w=1760&bih=856
http://triblive.com/x/dailynewsmckee...#axzz2sTfWpCzF
'Snowmageddon' paralyzes Pittsburgh - News - The Globe - Point Park University

They were lucky it happened mainly on a weekend, the weekend of the Super Bowl, no less.
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,435 posts, read 60,007,647 times
Reputation: 54097
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Many agencies, still don't bother to do a good job of taking input from existing riders when updating/modifying/expanding systems. This of course is related to our stupid philosophy of expansion over maintenance for all of our infrastructure.
That's odd ... I'd say it's related to the lack of adequate funding.

Quote:
We just expect transit riders to put up with what they get,, How many terrible bus shelters (if they are even that) have you seen. Bus stops that are hardly more than a pole. Stops without coverage or benches. Stops without schedule information. .....
I've seen bus stops with schedule information at the stop in precisely one of the eight or nine cities where I've lived; that was 40 years ago and that information no longer is posted at the stops. Most of them, you're lucky if you get a pole with the route number on it. As for benches or shelters, they make sense at the more heavily used stops, but not every single one; that would be prohibitively expensive, especially considering replacement because of vandalism, and then you'd be squawking about fare increases.

Whether or not there is a shelter at the bus stop is the least of my considerations in taking the bus vs. driving. If I want coverage, I'll bring an umbrella.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:14 PM
 
6,180 posts, read 5,579,317 times
Reputation: 4206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Actually, my district will give kids an excused absence for weather-related conditions (assuming the weather actually IS bad). But closing these schools at 1 PM just invited disaster. Parents had no choice but to pick up their kids if they didn't ride a bus. Parents who were at work had to drop what they were doing, maybe across the city, and drive to their kids' school(s). That was poor decision-making. The rest was just, well, weather.
Ideally, the schools probably should not have even opened for the day...which was the case with almost all of the school systems on the south side of the Atlanta metro region where the snow was originally forecast to be the heaviest early-on.

One of the major reasons why so many Northside school systems decided to open was because officials had been getting lots of heat from the public for closing down the schools for the threat of inclement weather which either turned out not to be very-severe or did not materialize.

Georgia Governor Nathan Deal, who is currently in the middle of running for re-election through a tough Republican primary contest, had been extreme getting heat from his political right over the weather-related closings where much of the electorate thought that the winter weather watches, advisories and warnings were part of some kind of liberal plot to perpetuate the global warning/global climate change agenda that is wildly-unpopular with the very-conservative voters that dominate Georgia's political climate...it sounds crazy, but that's Georgia politics.

Because of the increasing backlash against weather closings where the severe winter weather never really materialized, Georgia officials had been increasingly been kind of 'gun-shy' about closing schools and businesses on the threat of bad winter weather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Honestly, I would not use Pittsburgh as a shining example of traffic planning.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pitt...w=1760&bih=856
Area digging out from 'Snowmageddon' | TribLIVE
'Snowmageddon' paralyzes Pittsburgh - News - The Globe - Point Park University

They were lucky it happened mainly on a weekend, the weekend of the Super Bowl, no less.
I was NOT using Pittsburgh as a good example of traffic planning.

I was using Pittsburgh as an example of the size of the metropolitan road network that the Atlanta metro region is attempting to continue to use, despite having more than twice the population of the Pittsburgh metro region.

I was stating that despite having a regional population of over 6 million inhabitants, Atlanta has a vastly-undersized road network that was 'designed' only to handle the movements of a metro area with less than half the current population.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,084 posts, read 102,830,251 times
Reputation: 33152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
Ideally, the schools probably should not have even opened for the day...which was the case with almost all of the school systems on the south side of the Atlanta metro region where the snow was originally forecast to be the heaviest early-on.

One of the major reasons why so many Northside school systems decided to open was because officials had been getting lots of heat from the public for closing down the schools for the threat of inclement weather which either turned out not to be very-severe or did not materialize.

Georgia Governor Nathan Deal, who is currently in the middle of running for re-election through a tough Republican primary contest, had been extreme getting heat from his political right over the weather-related closings where much of the electorate thought that the winter weather watches, advisories and warnings were part of some kind of liberal plot to perpetuate the global warning/global climate change agenda that is wildly-unpopular with the very-conservative voters that dominate Georgia's political climate...it sounds crazy, but that's Georgia politics.

Because of the increasing backlash against weather closings where the severe winter weather never really materialized, Georgia officials had been increasingly been kind of 'gun-shy' about closing schools and businesses on the threat of bad winter weather.


I was NOT using Pittsburgh as a good example of traffic planning.

I was using Pittsburgh as an example of the size of the metropolitan road network that the Atlanta metro region is attempting to continue to use, despite having more than twice the population of the Pittsburgh metro region.

I was stating that despite having a regional population of over 6 million inhabitants, Atlanta has a vastly-undersized road network that was 'designed' only to handle the movements of a metro area with less than half the current population.
Closing in advance of a storm is also poor policy. My district doesn't make their decision until 6 AM the day of. Weather is too unpredictable to close ahead of time, only for there to be no snow/ice.

OK, I get your comments about Pittsburgh, but I wouldn't hold their road system up as any kind of "gold standard".
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:48 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,870,275 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post

Too many people involved in the transit decision making use a "windshield perspective" to make decisions. For example, speed is of relative importance for transit. But if you have a choice of a bus route that only takes 10 minutes and runs once and hour, and a bus route that takes 20 minutes and runs every 10 minutes. You are going to choose the latter. Frequency trumps absolute speed. But too many people (used to driving generally) think a faster trip is better than a frequent trip.
Not really that has to do with funding. More frequency usually means more drivers and more equipment and gas. The speed that the bus will travel will be limited by traffic and it's route.

Last edited by chirack; 02-05-2014 at 05:02 PM..
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:53 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,974 posts, read 42,293,666 times
Reputation: 43459
[quote=Katiana;33344337]Closing in advance of a storm is also poor policy. My district doesn't make their decision until 6 AM the day of. Weather is too unpredictable to close ahead of time, only for there to be no snow/ice.............. [ quote]

It's a judgment call. Get a day of school in and try to beat the storm home or call off and it may not hit.

Call it right you're a genius. Call it wrong and kids spend the night at school or on buses.

After 30 years as a teacher there's one thing I've learned-1/2 the people will think you did right and the other 1/2 will disagree. And we always make up the days in June.
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