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Old 02-05-2014, 01:32 PM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,198,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Here's an example of a curb extension that was put in in a dense commercial corridor in Richmond:

https://www.google.com/maps/preview/...qDtF8ppZeg!2e0

That's a busy intersection, and the unused pavement made crossing that much less safe. By removing some of the unused pavement and extending the curb, cars can see pedestrians much more easily, and traffic stays where it should (vs trying to make inappropriate turns). A lot of times, the danger of crossing on these streets is that traffic and pedestrians cannot see one another until they're both in each others' critical path.

Oh, and what makes this so important is that just because you have the green light (car or pedestrian), it doesn't mean the other person is going to stop. Far too many people have been killed by the right-away.
Good example. Most of these "pedestrian" improvements actually also improve motor vehicle flow because pedestrians spend less time in the ROW and as you stated it makes it much easier for a driver to see a pedestrian.
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,089 posts, read 16,121,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
I think part of the point here is that every urban street does not have to be a Busy urban street.
Given the population density some streets can have a road diet and underutilized pavement can become people space.
https://www.google.com/maps/preview/...a5e7a0!6m1!1e1

Much better than sitting 3" from cars driving passed you. That's one of the big advantages of newer cities. They're better designed for automobiles AND people so you don't have to squeeze in a tiny table large enough for a small bowl of soup and sit perilously 3" from the road to enjoy curbside dining.
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
https://www.google.com/maps/preview/...a5e7a0!6m1!1e1

Much better than sitting 3" from cars driving passed you. That's one of the big advantages of newer cities. They're better designed for automobiles AND people so you don't have to squeeze in a tiny table large enough for a small bowl of soup and sit perilously 3" from the road to enjoy curbside dining.
No question that building new has many advantages. But the point of this thread was improving existing neighborhoods by reclaiming underutilized pavement. As has been pointed out, sidewalk seating in crowded neighborhoods can work if the streets are low volume and low speed.

But outdoor seating is not the only option for underutilized pavement. Neckdowns for pedestrian crossings can benefit both drivers and pedestrians.
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: The City
22,341 posts, read 32,215,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
https://www.google.com/maps/preview/...a5e7a0!6m1!1e1

Much better than sitting 3" from cars driving passed you. That's one of the big advantages of newer cities. They're better designed for automobiles AND people so you don't have to squeeze in a tiny table large enough for a small bowl of soup and sit perilously 3" from the road to enjoy curbside dining.
agree on auto but not sure I 100% agree on people - but tht is subjective on most criteria

and on that styling, again some people like that (I could argue it makes for a more interactive experience and not talkng about cars) and ome wont - dont throw the baby out with the bath water in either regard.

It is a pretty high usage of a linited resource in such places, namely space. Building new and grand isnt always possible everywhere
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,343,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
agree on auto but not sure I 100% agree on people - but tht is subjective on most criteria

and on that styling, again some people like that (I could argue it makes for a more interactive experience and not talkng about cars) and ome wont - dont throw the baby out with the bath water in either regard.

It is a pretty high usage of a linited resource in such places, namely space. Building new and grand isnt always possible everywhere
I personally wouldn't agree on newer cities being better for people (or even the combination of people and cars).

In any case, one of the reasons we love Philly so much is the scale. Thin streets with people eating, walking, etc. has a charm most cities will never have in the US. I've eaten at a lot of outdoor places like you mentioned (in CC and South Philly), and I've never even noticed the traffic TBH. It is a heck of a lot of fun too!
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,426 posts, read 59,944,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
Some people just don't get that we have devoted way too much real estate to the automobile and every street does not need to be a high speed thruway.
Other people just don't get that making streets easy for auto travel and parking doesn't mean that all streets are high speed highways.

Quote:
People are complaining about loss of turn radius for autos and trucks, but what about reduced crossing danger for kids and the elderly?
Kids and elderly people drive, too! And they're the ones that really need the additional real estate to turn.

Quote:
It is ok if a car or delivery truck has to go a little slower or can not turn at EVERY intersection if it means everyone else is safer.
Great, does that mean you're going to pay the additional delivery charges for people when the delivery truck can't make it down their street?
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,726,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
This is what I was thinking, too. After all the yap about the accident in Atlanta where a little boy who got away from his mom was killed by a speeding car, we want parks and tables out in the open traffic? I'm all for outdoor dining, I like it and my town has some restaurants that have street side dining in the summer, but not right in the line of traffic!

City of Louisville, Colorado - Home
See the picture. There are restaurant tables behind the planters. The planters are in the parking lane.
But what happens when changes to the street, like the ones proposed happen, cars go slower. Reducing the accidents/risks for everyone on the road. In a car or not. Even if people rarely use it for enjoying Italian ices. This was well illustrated in the NYC examples.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:06 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,038 posts, read 102,742,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
But what happens when changes to the street, like the ones proposed happen, cars go slower. Reducing the accidents/risks for everyone on the road. In a car or not. Even if people rarely use it for enjoying Italian ices. This was well illustrated in the NYC examples.
I don't think that's the case in my town, though the speed limit on the street in the picture is only 25 anyway. I'd like to see something more than anecdotal evidence.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:34 PM
 
Location: The City
22,341 posts, read 32,215,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't think that's the case in my town, though the speed limit on the street in the picture is only 25 anyway. I'd like to see something more than anecdotal evidence.

One thing missing is perspective on this specific set of areas. While the speed is 25 most cars are actually moving considerably slower in this area actually as its already tight. What I think this may show is that there is room to increase open space or space for people currently given to asphalt. Space is a premium in S Philly and these areas are mostly 30-60K ppsm in density. people dont use cars here for errands or even to get ice cream or water ice in one example.

Like any situation understanding the specifics is important and to say this fits every place is not realistic either. This is an area with street scapes like this

9th Street Italian Market | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Italian Market | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

or even this, even delivery trucks are used to navigating slow an narrow spaces - this is just a suggestion that potentially new people could be added - even softened with green and plants really while not really impacting traffic to any great extent.

9th Street Market | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Geno's Steaks | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Rivals | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

and an example of already reclaimed space and well used

Every seat filled, conversation in the air, and a gentle cool breeze.. Perfect night at the East Passyunk Singing Fountain! #visitphilly @visitphilly @uwishunu #philly | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:55 PM
 
2,971 posts, read 2,758,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Saw this and found it interesting. Using picture and whee snow remains as a marker for public space expansion.

Enjoy


PHOTOS: What Snow Tells Us About Creating Better Public Spaces on E. Passyunk Avenue | This Old City

OK I read through the entire thread here on C-D, and the article, and I want to give props to most recent comment of David Yu (in comments at end of article - please read it). His comment is exactly what I was thinking having also grown up in region with much snow. I get it, if its the 'pedestrian only' traffic of a college quad for where to place walkways as is a common technique, but trying to draw a conclusion from where 'snow remains' on a public city street is ridiculous.

It's being primarily predicated on municipal snow removal patterns, and other variables having nothing to do with appropriateness of land use / purpose. How do you know the snow from sidewalk wasn't shoveled / blown onto those spaces by business establishments as well as collects there due to the municipal snow plow technique? Drivers in inclement weather with obstacles (such as snow) will often take roundabout trips based on the municipal snow removal patterns to have safest travel.
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