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Old 02-05-2014, 07:38 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,957,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impala096 View Post
I'm focusing on this picture in particular:


Looking on street view, there's no sign that indicated drivers on Carpenter Street are banned from making a right turn onto Passyunk Avenue. Judging by the tire tracks through the snow, drivers do use this pavement to complete a right hand turn at this intersection (legally i might add).

The turning radius that would be provided isn't adequate. Drivers (including passenger cars, trucks, and SUV's) would struggle completing a right turn without driving over the shaded green area.
I drove a box truck for an office supply company for a year. My delivery area was mostly Germantown, Mt. Airy and adjacent parts of North Philly, Roxborough and occasionally Manayunk. So while I didn't deliver to Bella Vista I had to drive on streets just like it. It's part of the job, not an issue and a small source of pride for the drivers who do it.

Illegally parked cars (too close to the corner) are a far more common problem than bump outs.

So, WRT the picture you posted above, cut the corner off (~2 feet) off the green bump out and there would be no problem, even in my old truck, to make that turn - which at ~120 - is a pretty extreme case. In all likelihood I probably wouldn't try to make the turn in the first place - opting to park on the corner of 7th & Carpenter instead because being on 7th gives me better options for being able to make more useful turns.

If you're driving a car or an SUV you have to be a really bad/lazy driver if you can't make that turn . . . and even if you wanted to cater to that sort of inadequacy you would just put in a mountable curb.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:48 PM
 
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It doesn't matter how many pictures you post of existing examples a few blocks away on the same street. People who don't live there will insist that it won't work . . . even when it already does.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:49 PM
 
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These are cool, but we need to think about both drivers and pedestrians. As you can see in several of the pictures there are cars parked on the sides of the various establishments. How much are we really gaining by adding those limited areas to public space? Maybe some of that space can be reclaimed, but cars aren't good at making 90 degree turns. We need to think about both, not just pedestrians or cars.
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,692,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't think that's the case in my town, though the speed limit on the street in the picture is only 25 anyway. I'd like to see something more than anecdotal evidence.
I've read about half a dozen article on the NYC changes. Here you go!

Janette Sadik-Khan: New York's streets? Not so mean any more | Video on TED.com

She talks stats in her Ted talk. But some redesigned streets say the number of collisions decrease by like 30% or more. That is pretty good with a couple of extra curbs. They improve visibility for everyone, and are a proven way to make streets safer.
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I've read about half a dozen article on the NYC changes. Here you go!

Janette Sadik-Khan: New York's streets? Not so mean any more | Video on TED.com

She talks stats in her Ted talk. But some redesigned streets say the number of collisions decrease by like 30% or more. That is pretty good with a couple of extra curbs. They improve visibility for everyone, and are a proven way to make streets safer.


The stats are more than available to anyone with a search bar. The body of work on traffic calming and ped injuries/fatalities goes back at least 30 years spanning dozens of cities in a handful of countries. It's far from anecdotal. The FHWA was publishing on it in the early 80s - thankfully best practices have improved quite a bit since then but that doesn't change the validity of the data.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:43 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,957,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian View Post
cars aren't good at making 90 degree turns. We need to think about both, not just pedestrians or cars.
Correction - cars aren't good at making 90 degree turns at 20mph.

But there's a stop sign on almost every corner in South Philly. The only intersections that don't have stop signs are signalized.

If you can drive down a row of parking spaces at the mall, turn down another row, then pull into one of those parking spaces; if you can pull into or out of a driveway; if you can parallel park you should have no problems driving on the streets of South Philly with or without bump outs. If a SEPTA bus driver can make the turn from 11th on to Tasker (I've witnessed this several times per week at various intersections around the city) with a slight amount of effort and a huge tail swing, joe schmo in his honda isn't going to have a problem.

In other words, stop like you're supposed to and you won't have a problem making the turn. Streets like this
http://goo.gl/maps/ATsqC exist all over Philadelphia. It's not an issue for Philly drivers to execute a 90 degree turn onto a street like this, off of a street like this, or even to turn into a garage at the other end of the block. Apparently it wasn't much of a problem for whoever was driving the google streetview car.

In a part of the city were the gross majority of public space has already been given over to cars, where anywhere from 40 to 70% (depending on the neighborhood) of households don't own a car in the first place, where most of those car-owning households are 1-car hh, where nearly everyone walks for most of their daily conveniences, and where over 60% of the people walk, bike or take transit to work it's not at all unreasonable to suggest that, in places were people aren't allowed to park in the first place, we give a tiny bit of the space back to pedestrians.
http://www.centercityphila.org/docs/...sportation.pdf

The wheel base on either section of this bus is longer than any car or SUV i'm familiar with and longer than most delivery trucks one sees on the streets of Philly. If you can't make this turn in your Camry without hitting the curb you just shouldn't be behind the wheel.

Xclusive: SEPTA 2013 Nova Bus LFSA HEV #7300 Tight Turn @ Cromwell Heights! - YouTube
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,072 posts, read 16,098,416 times
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When was the last time you saw one of those buses making the 120 turn on some of those neighborhood streets.

Nova Bus LFS Artic - CPTDB Wiki
If that's the same bus, they having a turning radius of 44'8". There was extra room there. The bus driver cut the corner too much and still made it, that might be a 50, hard to judge from a video with the bus blocking most of the view. My car has a turning radius of 17', most SUVs are under 25'.

Here's an actual look at what real planners use, just the first one that popped up on Google instead of drawing with green crayons.
http://www.deldot.gov/information/pu...ons.pdf?100411

You must not drive very much either. On a standard street, I can easily make a 90 degree turn at 25 mph. The 25 mph cloverleafs to get on a freeway have a ~170-180 foot radius. A semi can go around those at 25. Geriatrics in Buicks usually do it 30-35. That's almost exactly a 1/5 mile circumference which means at 25 mph you're pulling approximately .3 g. Yawn. Get it up to 45 and you're having some fun at .93g. That's unbanked, of course, which is why a hamfist in an econono box can hit those at 45 mph safely.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=30...b2PMLcsVQ&z=17

You can also clearly see the rubber pattern in the road. Since there's no rubber pattern from the turn, we can just draw on it with green crayon to show that cars don't use it.

Last edited by Malloric; 02-06-2014 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:35 AM
 
410 posts, read 389,849 times
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Pickups and SUV's would struggle to make this turn without either A.) hopping the curb or B.) backing up to complete the turn to prevent from hitting something (IE parked cars or curbs). The curb-to-curb turning circle is barely adequate for a Dodge Ram pickup.


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Old 02-06-2014, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,072 posts, read 16,098,416 times
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Good post Impala. That succinctly shows what I was saying. There's absolutely no imaginable way a bus with a turning radius of nearly 45' could even come close to making that turn.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:52 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,182,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Good post Impala. That succinctly shows what I was saying. There's absolutely no imaginable way a bus with a turning radius could even come close to making that turn.

But buses dont ever make that turn to begin with so not sure whay that matters

And again the specific intersection in questions has an alternative with no abrupt turns that adds at most 30 seconds to get back to the NE direction of Passyunk

There are many streets in this very area where there are existing truck restrictions on turning, is nothing for this area and those who drive into this area know how to navigate to begin with.

There are no shortage of bus routes in the area but none make that turn today nor have ever nor really have the need to. Also there is a subway a few blocks away which eleviates the turning need on streets to begin with
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