U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-06-2014, 03:22 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,827,437 times
Reputation: 9769

Advertisements

Two more thoughts on this article:

1) The idea seems to be basically to observe the operation of a system in a degraded mode, and then make changes to make the degraded mode the normal way of operation. I don't think this is a very wise engineering practice. (though as my earlier post pointed out, the author didn't actually stick to this idea)

2) The idea of taking away parking is based on a hyper-local conception of neighborhood; nobody should be patronizing a neighborhood business unless they're walking in the area; certainly it shouldn't be a destination for drivers from distant parts of the city or (horrors) the suburbs. I'm not so sure this would sit well with the business owners. (and before you mention public transportation, SEPTA is terrible and if the choice is taking a series of SEPTA buses or going somewhere else, most people with that choice will go somewhere else)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-06-2014, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,166 posts, read 29,665,044 times
Reputation: 26651
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post

2) The idea of taking away parking is based on a hyper-local conception of neighborhood; nobody should be patronizing a neighborhood business unless they're walking in the area; certainly it shouldn't be a destination for drivers from distant parts of the city or (horrors) the suburbs. I'm not so sure this would sit well with the business owners. (and before you mention public transportation, SEPTA is terrible and if the choice is taking a series of SEPTA buses or going somewhere else, most people with that choice will go somewhere else)
Wel it depends though. What types of businesses are over there?

For example, the town next to mine has a reputation for having some pretty good restaurants. Ok well towns on both sides do. But honestly, I rarely drive over those 3-5 miles to get there. Because I am passing dozens, if not more good restaurants in my own city to get there. Many in walking distance.

So are the neighborhood businesses neighborhood businesses or destination ones?

What's te competition like?

Let's say you are a restaurant supply store. Well, typically there aren't many of those, and people shopping at your store are making a special trip to go. Since it is a special trip, they a more willing to "work a liltle harder" to go there, if that was their purpose.

Now let's pretend it is Starbucks. If I am in my car, and there are 2 Starbucks in a mile, one with parking and one without, well I am going to go to the parking one. But if I am on foot, I'll go to the closer one. But obviously, there are plenty of alternatives, so ease of access will be a key decision point for me in choosing to patronize that business.

That decision is very dependent on the business type. Dry cleaners? You pick the neighborhood one. Special occasion restaurants, you will put in more work. Diner? Convenience and proximity rule.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2014, 04:24 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,157,756 times
Reputation: 7738
I think to blindly disregard that some of these spaces could benefit the area are equally as useless as blindly saying none can.

This is in fact a mostly pedestrian area. I live in this area have a car and never use unless leaving the area.

I don think two of the places discussed would greatly benefit from expanded space - the Passyunk Sq area is exploding these days and much with outdoor seating now

The interesection with the most discussion (7th and Passyunk) to me and living in the area would not be one of the priorities.

I do if nothing else think it interesting to see in an odd form (snow) some potential areas for both pedestrian and aut improvements (ie safety) and on the whole I dont think most local merchants in this area worry about parking to be honest - that is not how they get their business - maybe Genos and Pats but very few others. This is a neighborhood where people walk for 99% of there needs - others are outside the area like box stores. I can walk to one of the best outdoor markets in the country, a Super Freash or a Whole Foods in under 5 minutes (less time than finiding a parking takes many times in this area)

Simply accepting or discounting any of this is ill advised
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2014, 10:07 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,954,813 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
When was the last time you saw one of those buses making the 120 turn on some of those neighborhood streets.
Buses don't make 120 degree turns from Carpenter onto Passyunk. They don't need to. Bus routes in Philadelphia aren't designed to make buses turn onto a one-lane, one way street from another one-lane, one-way street. Larger trucks don't normally attempt it either.

If you're asking when the last time I saw a bus make a 90 degree turn from a one-way, one lane street onto another one-way, one lane street it would've been last year a few days before I left when the street was blocked ahead by a fire truck and the driver of the 29 chose not to sit there indefinitely. He had to reverse once. Other than that it was pretty good execution. As with most bus detours he probably drove up to where 11th St. is two lanes (bi-direction) and made a left onto Reed or Federal where he then probably turned south on Broad then west on Tasker again.

Quote:
Here's an actual look at what real planners use, just the first one that popped up on Google instead of drawing with green crayons.
http://www.deldot.gov/information/pu...ons.pdf?100411
That's great for new developments and highways in Delaware. It has no relevance to a 19th Century city built around horses and streetcars. As I said above and in my previous post - if big trucks or buses need to turn they go straight until they get to an arterial they can turn onto.

Quote:
You must not drive very much either. On a standard street, I can easily make a 90 degree turn at 25 mph.
You must not follow threads. Because if you did you'd see the part where I drove a delivery truck in the city (and that was just working out of a warehouse in Eastwick - I also delivered from Pennsauken to Center City for a year before that).

As you say, you can turn at 25mph when you have 180ft to do it in. In Philadelphia you don't get 180 ft. You get 20-30 ft. Try to turn from Tasker on to 11th at 25mph and your insurance will be paying out multiple claims.


Quote:
The 25 mph cloverleafs to get on a freeway have a ~170-180 foot radius. A semi can go around those at 25. Geriatrics in Buicks usually do it 30-35. That's almost exactly a 1/5 mile circumference which means at 25 mph you're pulling approximately .3 g. Yawn. Get it up to 45 and you're having some fun at .93g. That's unbanked, of course, which is why a hamfist in an econono box can hit those at 45 mph safely.
Again, not sure why you're bringing up the speeds of a freeway cloverleaf in the context of South Philly. A freeway interchange would take up most of 4 square blocks. I'd like to see you turn from Washington on to Broad St. at 45mph and not hit anyone or anything much less stay in your lane.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-07-2014, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Interesting idea. However, I didn't see many examples where the space he outlines could be effectively transformed into any type of usable space. Perhaps certain design elements could be altered for safety purposes though.

What would this intersection look like if it snowed?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=barce...12,199.42,,0,0
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-07-2014, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
I think a lot of the intersections have those open spaces so that views of oncoming traffic are not obstructed. I almost had an accident the other day when a delivery truck was parked illegally in front of a row of cars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-07-2014, 12:44 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,996 posts, read 102,581,357 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I think a lot of the intersections have those open spaces so that views of oncoming traffic are not obstructed. I almost had an accident the other day when a delivery truck was parked illegally in front of a row of cars.
There is that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-07-2014, 01:09 PM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,194,181 times
Reputation: 3351
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I think a lot of the intersections have those open spaces so that views of oncoming traffic are not obstructed. I almost had an accident the other day when a delivery truck was parked illegally in front of a row of cars.
And making that space a pedestrian space will preserve the views.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-07-2014, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
And making that space a pedestrian space will preserve the views.
I think it would have been helpful if the author had provided some real-world examples of better utilized space. While there are certainly areas of all American cities that could use road diets and/or pedestrian improvements, I simply don't find that to be the case for most of the intersections he displayed. Even the best designed cities would have that same "excess."

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=paris...12,234.76,,0,0

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=paris...=12,74.95,,0,0
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2014, 02:00 PM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,715,010 times
Reputation: 2538
"A growing number of urban thinkers and planners believe that sneckdowns offer a natural guide to where permanent neckdowns and traffic islands could be built. Earlier this week, for instance, the Office of Transportation Planning in Raleigh, North Carolina, tweeted “Since we know the snow is coming, send us your pictures of wasted space at intersections in Raleigh.”"

"Gary Toth, a long-term engineer for the New Jersey Department of Transportation who now works for New York’s Project for Public Spaces, says people have lost patience with the glacially slow pace of traditional street design and improvement. Sneckdowns, he notes, “let you watch real-time human behaviour rather than using computer models to predict it—models that often get it wrong.” He believes that “lighter, quicker, cheaper” is the way forward in urban street planning. Sometimes that means using temporary neckdowns, barrels or painted bike lanes to see what works. Sometimes it means waiting for snow.

Like all new ideas, this one has its forebears. As far back as the 1980s, road planners in Australia were covering intersections with flour, waiting a few hours, then climbing the nearest high building and photographing the paths vehicles had taken. The results were used to improve junction layouts. And at San Jose State University in California, among others, some footpaths were laid only after planners studied shortcuts taken by students rushing to class—the optimal routes known as “desire paths”."

Natural traffic control: Undriven snow | The Economist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top