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Old 02-06-2014, 09:08 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,960,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Not mean at all; my concern is that eliminating parking on one block, or two, does not stop crime, it simply moves it somewhere else.
eh, not exactly.

I've lived in a few places that had a lot of open air drug dealing and in a few places where drug dealing was a lot more subtle. In addition to having a relative who worked in the local DEA office I also spent a lot of time working with the district police trying to do something about it.

Open air dealers love parked cars. Especially cars that just sit there all day. A buyer walks up and says, "I need $10 of such and such". He walks away. A kid on a bike rides up to him and takes his money. Another kid walks up and tells him where it's stashed. That's quite often on top of a car tire, under a door handle, wedged in a bumper, behind a license plate, etc. for a time I was finding them stashed in my potted plants or under crushed soda cans along the curb. This is usually the kind of bottom-of-the-barrell dealing associated with crack & heroin - where people have hit rock bottom and don't have a phone anymore.

This kind of thing thrives because there are enough people living there who benefit from the drug trade to intimidate the upstanding people who don't . . . and because unless you're going to testify in court against your neighbor while all of his friends and family watch in a case that's not likely to go very far in the first place there's little that can be done because dealers have structured their operations around the law so that it's very expensive to successfully prosecute cases.

At one apartment I lived in I had an awesome vantage point and after a while I worked out that people were calling in their order, like ordering take-out. They would drive down from Center City, stop for a minute to pay one guy then drive around the block and another guy would walk up to the car for the hand off.

Dealers from the 'hood don't move to middle-class or wealthy neighborhoods. In middle-class neighborhoods they're usually from there and if they're smart (not often) they know how to fly under the radar for a few years (or a lot of years). In wealthy neighborhoods it's usually home delivery by middle-class looking/sounding kids who can blend in and the operations are based in a middle-class or poor neighborhood (this usually depends on the type of drug). People with money will pay a lot for discretion - to not be seen buying coke in the ghetto

When cops get dealers to move off one corner they don't all just move around the corner because the cops follow them. They don't move to a new neighborhood near theirs because that's almost always someone else's turf and you only do that with guns blazing or by paying tribute. Most of the time the dealers wind up moving most of their operations indoors which makes it easier to bust/prosecute.

Where drug markets exist has to do with where it's easy to operate, sure, but far more than that it's driven by the nature of the buyers and where they're coming from, the health of the overall economy, what's readily available (read:cheap), which ethnic group is controlling that part of the market, what drug is "in", etc.

So getting back to the OP, if getting rid of parking is a temporary measure to combat a serious problem then so be it. It's no different than changing the direction of a one way street or closing a street entirely to stop people from cruising drive-through drug markets.

Personally, I'm only opposed to the drug trade so far as it's underground, violent and connected to a lot of other nasty stuff the biggest of which (for me at least) is human trafficking. Legalize most of it. Regulate it. Tax it. Get it off the street and away from guns and organized crime.

Then you can have your 12 parking spaces back.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:22 PM
 
2,971 posts, read 2,758,703 times
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I'm for cutting down crime by ELIMINATING criminals - not displacing them.

I get the 'nimbyism' thread that weaves its way into the issue being discussed, but it is the typical political Band-Aid 'whack-a-mole' approach. Best approach is to concentrate, isolate and then remove - permanently (when possible). Instead of dispersing it somewhere else a la the fine balloon illustration given by earlier post - just sweep, target, and clean (repeat as necessary).

Think this slogan would gain traction? - "Alcatraz more than a tourist destination"

Oh, and don't forget those great fast food drive-thru's that do double duty with code word requests like, "I'll have the toy" with that order.

Somehow this scene comes readily to mind :


dirty harry_my policy - YouTube

Levity....
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,726,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
I'm for cutting down crime by ELIMINATING criminals - not displacing them.

I get the 'nimbyism' thread that weaves its way into the issue being discussed, but it is the typical political Band-Aid 'whack-a-mole' approach. Best approach is to concentrate, isolate and then remove - permanently (when possible). Instead of dispersing it somewhere else a la the fine balloon illustration given by earlier post - just sweep, target, and clean (repeat as necessary).

Levity....
They have been "isolating" all the crime and issues to that area of SF for decades. And didn't bother to eliminate anything. What about the quality of life for those residents.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:28 AM
 
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The neighborhoods of SF are really interesting. I remember the first time, when I just moved there, exploring the city and taking a turn off of market and soon finding myself there. It was a rather an abrupt shock.

I do feel bad for the residents, but in some ways I kind of thing these neighborhoods and isolating the activity to them is a net benefit instead of just having the same activity spread out.

Of course, getting rid of it (well, really moving it indoors) would be preferable.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,431 posts, read 59,944,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
They have been "isolating" all the crime and issues to that area of SF for decades. And didn't bother to eliminate anything. What about the quality of life for those residents.
Isolating and eliminating are not the same thing. I don't think anyone would disagree that "out of sight out of mind" is not the best policy. But neither is shoving one neighborhood's problems off onto another. Why can't you grasp that?
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Maui County, HI
4,131 posts, read 6,315,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Isolating and eliminating are not the same thing. I don't think anyone would disagree that "out of sight out of mind" is not the best policy. But neither is shoving one neighborhood's problems off onto another. Why can't you grasp that?
So we shouldn't do anything about drug dealers because making their lives harder just makes them move?


Maybe they'll move to where the tech workers live. People in that industry tend to be very libertarian so they'll probably welcome the drug dealers right?
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,726,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Isolating and eliminating are not the same thing. I don't think anyone would disagree that "out of sight out of mind" is not the best policy. But neither is shoving one neighborhood's problems off onto another. Why can't you grasp that?
They haven't done anything about the problem for 30 years. It won't be eliminated overnight, but this is the first time they tried a new tactic. Besides the old one: shoving the problems to the social services organizations to do that, and consolidating all of the trouble to a single neighborhood. Eliminating drug dealers isn't going to happen overnight. Eliminating it on the block most notorious for doing the dealing will have a huge effect.

The lazy ones aren't going to find a new place to deal. Maybe making access "harder" will encourage the users to get help. The people who had to deal with drug dealers and users invading their block everyday no longer have to deal with it. Why is it so hard to grasp the net positive is huge, even if there is minor impact on a neighboring block.
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:13 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,960,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Isolating and eliminating are not the same thing. I don't think anyone would disagree that "out of sight out of mind" is not the best policy. But neither is shoving one neighborhood's problems off onto another. Why can't you grasp that?
OK, you have our attention.

What would you propose?
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:10 PM
 
9,522 posts, read 14,869,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
Maybe they'll move to where the tech workers live. People in that industry tend to be very libertarian so they'll probably welcome the drug dealers right?
Haha, they're not libertarians, they're mostly total California granola leftists. Especially the ones who move to SF.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:27 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,070,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post

Maybe they'll move to where the tech workers live. People in that industry tend to be very libertarian so they'll probably welcome the drug dealers right?
There's open air drug dealing a few blocks away from Twitter's headquarters.
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