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Old 02-11-2014, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,595,082 times
Reputation: 7830

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I am not "far from the truth"! In fact, I am being very truthful. You're the one who thinks that we have several parallel tracks (no pun intended) of rail. The only separate tracking system is light rail, and not all commuter rail is light rail. That you don't want to believe it doesn't invalidate what I stated.
Commuter rail is used to service those that live much further out rather than local commutes. Many commuter rail lines borrow freight lines which is where delays can come from, but those tracks are primarily for freight rail. If you look at systems that are exclusively commuter rail, you will see a much different structure of tracks in the sense that commuter trains are not as long, nor as loud as freight rail. You aren't going to see commuter trains that are several miles long making it impossible to cross.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:15 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,100,107 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Who said anything about highways? Rail systems take up far more land than surface streets. And rail certainly divides up a city. Ever heard the expression "other side of the tracks"?
Well smaller streets. Rail may take up as much space as an arterial, maybe less. Less than highway, especially with entrances and exit. Here's a four track line, so wider than a typical rail line next to a highway (I-95). Both vary in width, but in general the rail line takes up less space than the highway:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stamf...nnecticut&z=17

Not all rail lines separate the town much. I've seen plenty that don't. As for freight rail, higher frequency passenger lines typically don't have much freight rail; Metra may be an exception. While most of the miles of passenger rail are owned by freight rail, most of the passenger use is own ones that don't get much freight and aren't own by freight railroads. Here's a rail line in Boston:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=malde...achusetts&z=17

not obviously wider than the streets, except for maybe the smaller residential ones. Another:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.32899...23088&t=k&z=16

it's a bit wider than the parellel street partly because it has trees surrounding it. Again four track. Here's one on Long Island:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Babyl...+New+York&z=15

The highway takes up more space. In addition, fast moving car entering and exitting present more of a pedestrian hazard than the train line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

I honestly never heard of separate lines for passenger and freight service in traditional railroads. They've always shared track.
The MTA (NYC area) commuter rail lines often have minimal freight. The MTA owns the tracks. There are some nearby parellel freight railroads that are primarily freight. For example, east of the Hudson is mainly freight, west of the Hudson is passenger only. Still there's some freight, as the Hudson Line service was suspended months back because of a garbage train derailing (ick!)
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,595,082 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
It has nothing to do with fabric, either! It's just a cutesy phrase. Tell me, urbanlife, what kind of fabric is "urban fabric". Is it cotton, polyester, or maybe hemp?
There are more uses for the word "fabric" than just clothing.

Quote:
Full Definition of FABRIC

1
a : structure, building
b : underlying structure : framework <the fabric of society>
2
: an act of constructing : erection; specifically : the construction and maintenance of a church building
3
a : structural plan or style of construction
b : texture, quality —used chiefly of textiles
c : the arrangement of physical components (as of soil) in relation to each other
4
a : cloth 1a
b : a material that resembles cloth
5
: the appearance or pattern produced by the shapes and arrangement of the crystal grains in a rock
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:37 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,100,107 times
Reputation: 14811
The LIRR main line through Queens (grade separated, as anything that high of a frequency of trains must be):

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fores...,52.79,,0,2.51

not much of a barrier. Note the billboard that displayed towards the railroad rather than the local street.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Monmouth County, NJ & Staten Island, NY
407 posts, read 408,583 times
Reputation: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Why wouldn't we develop both? Not all of London looks like your first picture, if you want something less urban and more front yard, I don't see why you couldn't have that. What does that have to do with providing adequate transit and building denser centers to maximize the use of transit?
You're essentially arguing nothing, because we already DO have both.

We even build things like that brand new like this and this as well and this place too, in addition to plenty of other new developments being built in cities/suburbs all over the US...this is in addition to the plenty of existing levels of urban cities we have available for people to live as well. So I really don't understand what you're complaining about, because there are enough other people who like what you want and since the demand is there, it's being done.

What I don't like is how your ridiculous ideologue essentially reasons that this isn't good enough for you and that one should be frowned upon for wanting to live in a beautiful community like this instead simply because you (and some other folks) don't like it.

That is utter and complete nonsense. You're getting what you're asking for, leave the people alone who didn't ask for it. It truly confounds me how this is such a hard concept to grasp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Also, the US is a very big country, I don't see why we can't have high density cities with adequate transit options and low density suburbs that don't continuously consume rural and farm land.
Again, we already do.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,065 posts, read 102,785,508 times
Reputation: 33122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Well smaller streets. Rail may take up as much space as an arterial, maybe less. Less than highway, especially with entrances and exit. Here's a four track line, so wider than a typical rail line next to a highway (I-95). Both vary in width, but in general the rail line takes up less space than the highway:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stamf...nnecticut&z=17

Not all rail lines separate the town much. I've seen plenty that don't. As for freight rail, higher frequency passenger lines typically don't have much freight rail; Metra may be an exception. While most of the miles of passenger rail are owned by freight rail, most of the passenger use is own ones that don't get much freight and aren't own by freight railroads. Here's a rail line in Boston:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=malde...achusetts&z=17

not obviously wider than the streets, except for maybe the smaller residential ones. Another:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.32899...23088&t=k&z=16

it's a bit wider than the parellel street partly because it has trees surrounding it. Again four track. Here's one on Long Island:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Babyl...+New+York&z=15

The highway takes up more space. In addition, fast moving car entering and exitting present more of a pedestrian hazard than the train line.




The MTA (NYC area) commuter rail lines often have minimal freight. The MTA owns the tracks. There are some nearby parellel freight railroads that are primarily freight. For example, east of the Hudson is mainly freight, west of the Hudson is passenger only. Still there's some freight, as the Hudson Line service was suspended months back because of a garbage train derailing (ick!)
As for highways taking up more space with ramps and such, I think the land taken up for RR passenger stations and Park and Rides is similar, if not the exact equivalent. Many arterials through cities do not have ramps. As everyone knows, NYC is an outlier. NYC has the "economy of scale" to be able to do what other cities can't. In most places, the same tracks are used for freight and passenger service. My hometown was serviced by two railroad lines (now merged into one). They each had passenger service, and freight service. There was not a separate set of lines for passenger rail.

How many times have you heard stories of a passenger train having to pull over onto a spur line to let a freight train go by? Freight rules!

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
There are more uses for the word "fabric" than just clothing.
That's interesting!
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,065 posts, read 102,785,508 times
Reputation: 33122
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Commuter rail is used to service those that live much further out rather than local commutes. Many commuter rail lines borrow freight lines which is where delays can come from, but those tracks are primarily for freight rail. If you look at systems that are exclusively commuter rail, you will see a much different structure of tracks in the sense that commuter trains are not as long, nor as loud as freight rail. You aren't going to see commuter trains that are several miles long making it impossible to cross.
But that's not what we are talking about, is it?
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,897 posts, read 7,673,015 times
Reputation: 4513
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
You're essentially arguing nothing, because we already DO have both.

We even build things like that brand new like this and this as well and this place too, in addition to plenty of other new developments being built in cities/suburbs all over the US...this is in addition to the plenty of existing levels of urban cities we have available for people to live as well. So I really don't understand what you're complaining about, because there are enough other people who like what you want and since the demand is there, it's being done.
We do? Could you provide more examples--that aren't within spitting distance of each other--throughout the US? Outside of NYC, Chicago, LA, and San Francisco, how common is that kind of development, really?

Quote:
What I don't like is how your ridiculous ideologue essentially reasons that
this isn't good enough for you and that one should be frowned upon
for wanting to live in a beautiful
community like this instead
simply because you (and some other
folks) don't like it.

That is utter and complete nonsense. You're getting what you're asking for, leave the people alone who didn't ask for it. It truly confounds me how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
To each their own, I guess. But, where has urbanlife78 said that kind of large lot development shouldn't happen?

Quote:
Again, we already do.
I believe you're way overestimating how common new, urban development is, throughout the US.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,595,082 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
You're essentially arguing nothing, because we already DO have both.

We even build things like that brand new like this and this as well and this place too, in addition to plenty of other new developments being built in cities/suburbs all over the US...this is in addition to the plenty of existing levels of urban cities we have available for people to live as well. So I really don't understand what you're complaining about, because there are enough other people who like what you want and since the demand is there, it's being done.

What I don't like is how your ridiculous ideologue essentially reasons that this isn't good enough for you and that one should be frowned upon for wanting to live in a beautiful community like this instead simply because you (and some other folks) don't like it.

That is utter and complete nonsense. You're getting what you're asking for, leave the people alone who didn't ask for it. It truly confounds me how this is such a hard concept to grasp.



Again, we already do.
I am not sure I understand what you are complaining about. Who is frowning on you wanting to live very far from the city in a suburban community? It isn't like that suburb is close to any real city.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,595,082 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
But that's not what we are talking about, is it?
Actually we are talking about traffic, you seem to want to talk about freight rail as if it is the same thing as commuter rail.
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