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Old 02-11-2014, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Actually we are talking about traffic, you seem to want to talk about freight rail as if it is the same thing as commuter rail.
I give up! We're not talking about trains blocking traffic, or we weren't until you brought it up. Actually, you're jumping all over the place, keep "moving the goalposts".
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:13 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,169,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
As for highways taking up more space with ramps and such, I think the land taken up for RR passenger stations and Park and Rides is similar, if not the exact equivalent. Many arterials through cities do not have ramps. As everyone knows, NYC is an outlier. NYC has the "economy of scale" to be able to do what other cities can't. In most places, the same tracks are used for freight and passenger service. My hometown was serviced by two railroad lines (now merged into one). They each had passenger service, and freight service. There was not a separate set of lines for passenger rail.
Maybe, the examples I shown rail wasn't that space consuming. As for NYC being an outlier, is for North America. Outside of North America, it's not that much of an outlier. And you asked for an example, and I found the closest thing in North America to separated freight and passenger. Btw, growing up on Long Island, I assumed freight rail is barely used these days and it was mainly passenger rail left. Because geography, most rail is passenger and freight rail is minimal. I remember going on a trip to California and somewhere in the Central Valley we saw a nearly mile-long freight train that we watched with surprise.

Quote:
How many times have you heard stories of a passenger train having to pull over onto a spur line to let a freight train go by? Freight rules!
Only long-distance, low frequency Amtrak trains pull over freight trains. You'd never have a LIRR train, or an MBTA (Boston) pull over for a freight train. On most NE Amtrak lines, say Philly to Harrisburg or NYC to Albany or Springfield southward, pulling over freight trains does not happen. Freight does not rule in most cases in the Northeast.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:14 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,169,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I give up! We're not talking about trains blocking traffic, or we weren't until you brought it up. Actually, you're jumping all over the place, keep "moving the goalposts".
It's unclear what the goalposts are, or what people are arguing. What were you trying to talk about, then?

Last edited by nei; 02-11-2014 at 02:39 PM..
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,630,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I give up! We're not talking about trains blocking traffic, or we weren't until you brought it up. Actually, you're jumping all over the place, keep "moving the goalposts".
You are the one who keeps talking about freight rail, you were the one that tried to say rail consumes more space than surface streets when you include rail and ROW, when the reality is ROW is tied to freight rail, not commuter rail.

So there has been no moving of the goalposts, you just haven't figured out where those goalposts should be yet.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Only long-distance, low frequency Amtrak trains pull over freight trains. You'd never have a LIRR train, or an MBTA (Boston) pull over for a freight train. On most NE Amtrak lines, say Philly to Harrisburg or NYC to Albany or Springfield southward, pulling over freight trains does not happen. Freight does not rule in most cases in the Northeast.
I believe much of the commuter rail in the Northeast are exclusive rail lines, which makes it easier for the Northeast to upgrade to high speed rail....provided they can keep their drivers awake.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:30 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I believe much of the commuter rail in the Northeast are exclusive rail lines, which makes it easier for the Northeast to upgrade to high speed rail....provided they can keep their drivers awake.
I've seen freight on Amtrak in the Northeast, LIRR, Metro North and MBTA. In all these case, freight does not rule. Freight has to shunt to the side for passenger rail. In almost all these cases, the transit agency owns the line. Often freight is relegated to off hours, particularly at night. But I've seen freight train sitting on the tracks in the middle of the day. Near the train station by parent's house, a lumber yard gets deliveries by rail. As I mentioned, Metro North got delayed because a garbage truck got derailed in The Bronx, not some lightly used spur of a line but a rather busy line.

Part of the main line of the LIRR gets about 9 trains per hour off peak, it's completely impractical to have freight trains running on the same tracks.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:36 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,169,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
You're essentially arguing nothing, because we already DO have both.

We even build things like that brand new like this and this as well and this place too, in addition to plenty of other new developments being built in cities/suburbs all over the US...this is in addition to the plenty of existing levels of urban cities we have available for people to live as well. So I really don't understand what you're complaining about, because there are enough other people who like what you want and since the demand is there, it's being done.
First, those are all by a busy road, so they look rather unappealing. They may be a bit isolated from the surrounding area as well, but I don't know much about them. Second, you can't look at development in isolation, people need to access over less pedestrian friendly places. I'm living in the closest place in form there is in the area, I still have to visit other areas, and trying to make sure the place fits my tastes limits by housing choices considerably, though. Third, it's an internet forum not a serious place where anyone has the ability to make things happen. If someone has the opinion I wish my area could be built like this instead, let them dream of it. I don't understand what the big deal is. Also, at least in the Northeast, the most walkable / transit friendly have often undergone the most decline and are unpleasant places to live in. Many of the smaller New England could be nice urban centers, but they're rather down.

Is for myself, here's how I wish my current area was instead. Current it's a mix of old towns and a couple of somewhat decayed cities with a lot of newer housing and business spread out in a very low density way in between. I'd rather most of the development stay in the older towns (with newer development being of a similar style to the older one), or maybe add a new, denser satellite town to accommodate growth. With a network of segregated bus lanes or light rail to connect them. It would be a much more appealing urban area to me.

Quote:
What I don't like is how your ridiculous ideologue essentially reasons that this isn't good enough for you and that one should be frowned upon for wanting to live in a beautiful community like this instead simply because you (and some other folks) don't like it.

That is utter and complete nonsense. You're getting what you're asking for, leave the people alone who didn't ask for it. It truly confounds me how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
It's rather easy to tell others "they're getting what they want" when you don't really like what they want. Since transit-friendly and walkabilty doesn't matter much to you, you won't notice as much what matters to others. Likewise, others have posted "compromise" walkable neighborhoods, with some space but more walkable than most. From what I remember, you commented they weren't good enough for you. For myself, who doesn't value what you value, it seemed unreasonably picky, because they seem like small details. The same goes in the opposite direction, from your perspective to ours.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,107 posts, read 102,884,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
It's unclear what the goalposts are, or what people are arguing.
Yes, 'tis! I thought we started out taking about how highways divide cities, whereas, supposedly train tracks do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
You are the one who keeps talking about freight rail, you were the one that tried to say rail consumes more space than surface streets when you include rail and ROW, when the reality is ROW is tied to freight rail, not commuter rail.

So there has been no moving of the goalposts, you just haven't figured out where those goalposts should be yet.
I said "rail". You're the one who first started talking about commuter rail, then denying that passenger trains and freight trains ran on the same tracks, even though I posted links confirming that 60% of Amtrak routes run on freight tracks. Historically as well, when the expression "wrong side of the tracks" was coined, freight and passenger trains shared track. I never meant "light rail" which is one subset of commuter rail.

Enough! I'm going to order some flowers for my mother-in-law for Valentine's Day. You should do the same.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,630,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I've seen freight on Amtrak in the Northeast, LIRR, Metro North and MBTA. In all these case, freight does not rule. Freight has to shunt to the side for passenger rail. In almost all these cases, the transit agency owns the line. Often freight is relegated to off hours, particularly at night. But I've seen freight train sitting on the tracks in the middle of the day. Near the train station by parent's house, a lumber yard gets deliveries by rail. As I mentioned, Metro North got delayed because a garbage truck got derailed in The Bronx, not some lightly used spur of a line but a rather busy line.

Part of the main line of the LIRR gets about 9 trains per hour off peak, it's completely impractical to have freight trains running on the same tracks.
The freight trains that do use those lines do not own them, the commuter rail owns them, therefore they have priority over freight. Amtrak does not own its own tracks for the most part and rely on freight rail lines, when you see Amtrak getting a priority, it is because that was scheduled.

Most freight in the NYC metro moves by truck.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,630,203 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yes, 'tis! I thought we started out taking about how highways divide cities, whereas, supposedly train tracks do not.



I said "rail". You're the one who first started talking about commuter rail, then denying that passenger trains and freight trains ran on the same tracks, even though I posted links confirming that 60% of Amtrak routes run on freight tracks. Historically as well, when the expression "wrong side of the tracks" was coined, freight and passenger trains shared track. I never meant "light rail" which is one subset of commuter rail.

Enough! I'm going to order some flowers for my mother-in-law for Valentine's Day. You should do the same.
Amtrak isn't a commuter rail, it is a passenger train, though there are some places that Amtrak does provide commuter rail.

But when I say commuter rail, I am referring to rail like Metra, NJ Transit, LIRR, Metro North and such, those are commuter systems.
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