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Old 02-17-2014, 12:01 PM
 
358 posts, read 359,904 times
Reputation: 306

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
To the block, you can't complain about this. Within the block you'll next be complaining that people coming from the "other side" have an advantage because they wouldn't have to walk past all the stores you don't want to walk past to get to your destination.
In my opinion, walking past all the other stores is a good thing. It's good for business, and it maintains foot traffic. People will want to walk there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
You've previously hypothesized: "Denser development yields shorter walks. Easy as that." Your hypothesis is false. Your destination is no closer, your walk is no shorter. This is about your personal aesthetic preferences.
Walking into a store that is adjacent to the sidewalk is shorter than walking through a parking lot to get to the store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Are you going to complain about people being dropped off by a car next? Or perhaps complain that people that live closer to the store you seek are being given "preferential treatment" because they live closer than you or perhaps the store is located more towards one side than the other?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Then you might try to stop using them. There isn't an argument, only a debate initiated by folks that think the world must change for them. Again, filling up the parking lot with a bunch of other buildings to meet your personal aesthetic preferences does not shorten the walk nor make the destination any more accessible to you.
I think you're more interested in quieting down the people you deem as "complainers".

 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:08 PM
 
644 posts, read 994,018 times
Reputation: 530
Here's an example of a strip mall in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood that works really well in the neighborhood. Street View in Hyde Park is limited for some reason, but hopefully that shot will give you the idea. The strip mall occupies one short city block and is very connected with the sidewalk. There's a bus stop right next to it for a local neighborhood circulator, and it's only two blocks away in either direction from several other bus routes.

You can't really see it from the shot, but this strip mall includes a small local grocery store, a CVS pharmacy, four restaurants, a liquor store, an optometrist, and a kids' barber shop. Many of these businesses are ones that people in the neighborhood visit frequently. The parking lot is busy but small, and pedestrians only have to cross traffic twice to get from the sidewalk into the stores. Speed bumps help to slow down traffic, which is a good thing due to the extraordinary number of people who walk to this strip mall. The amount of parking offered is just right - the lot is usually close to full at all hours of the day. The surrounding streets are rather congested with parked cars (you can see how dense the nearby housing is), but it's usually possible to get a spot within a few blocks if the parking lot is full.

This strip mall is definitely ugly and outdated, but it gets the job done. It's really an efficient use of a small space.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:15 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,294,382 times
Reputation: 20418
Some have mentioned strip malls with Home Depots or similar...

Don't know about you... I, would not want to have to carry sheets of drywall or plywood are 50lb boxes of nails no matter how friendly.

Even groceries... I tend to buy once a month and buy in bulk.

As mentioned the medical center I helped build has a huge underused parking areas and the ONLY reason is because the city required it...

I live in an urban area and if my destination is not car friendly I simply avoid it and SF is a city I see each day looking out my window and one that I visit maybe once every couple of years because it is not car friendly.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:16 PM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,715,489 times
Reputation: 2538
Funny back and forth - but the answer lies in simple observation. People do not, with rare exceptions, walk to a strip mall. And 99% of the pedestrians to strip malls are the underclass who have no options.

People don't walk because it's unpleasant to walk to a strip mall. It fails just about every test of walkability: safe, comfortable, interesting and useful (it is arguably useful).

But again, you don't even need to get to why strip malls are unwalkable to know that they are, all you need to do is observe - no one walks to them.

And them observe the areas that people love to walk in. Worlds of difference.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,523,816 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBVirtuoso View Post
Here's an example of a strip mall in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood that works really well in the neighborhood. Street View in Hyde Park is limited for some reason, but hopefully that shot will give you the idea. The strip mall occupies one short city block and is very connected with the sidewalk. There's a bus stop right next to it for a local neighborhood circulator, and it's only two blocks away in either direction from several other bus routes.

You can't really see it from the shot, but this strip mall includes a small local grocery store, a CVS pharmacy, four restaurants, a liquor store, an optometrist, and a kids' barber shop. Many of these businesses are ones that people in the neighborhood visit frequently. The parking lot is busy but small, and pedestrians only have to cross traffic twice to get from the sidewalk into the stores. Speed bumps help to slow down traffic, which is a good thing due to the extraordinary number of people who walk to this strip mall. The amount of parking offered is just right - the lot is usually close to full at all hours of the day. The surrounding streets are rather congested with parked cars (you can see how dense the nearby housing is), but it's usually possible to get a spot within a few blocks if the parking lot is full.

This strip mall is definitely ugly and outdated, but it gets the job done. It's really an efficient use of a small space.
For a strip mall that is actually a really well designed one, and the look of it can easily be updated while the overall structure of the site is effective.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,168 posts, read 29,669,595 times
Reputation: 26656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Some have mentioned strip malls with Home Depots or similar...

Don't know about you... I, would not want to have to carry sheets of drywall or plywood are 50lb boxes of nails no matter how friendly.

Even groceries... I tend to buy once a month and buy in bulk.

As mentioned the medical center I helped build has a huge underused parking areas and the ONLY reason is because the city required it...

I live in an urban area and if my destination is not car friendly I simply avoid it and SF is a city I see each day looking out my window and one that I visit maybe once every couple of years because it is not car friendly.
(as you know) Our Ikea has a parking garage, they had to add the garage because a few months after opening, the surface lots were always full. In order to deal with people having big stuff to carry, they converted the front parking into a loading zone....
 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,523,816 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Some have mentioned strip malls with Home Depots or similar...

Don't know about you... I, would not want to have to carry sheets of drywall or plywood are 50lb boxes of nails no matter how friendly.

Even groceries... I tend to buy once a month and buy in bulk.

As mentioned the medical center I helped build has a huge underused parking areas and the ONLY reason is because the city required it...

I live in an urban area and if my destination is not car friendly I simply avoid it and SF is a city I see each day looking out my window and one that I visit maybe once every couple of years because it is not car friendly.
That seems like a sad way to live a life.

Hardware stores and grocery stores should have some sort of parking lots, even in Park Slope there is a grocery store with a small parking lot, though most people live in easy walking distance to it and do walk to get their groceries.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,168 posts, read 29,669,595 times
Reputation: 26656
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
That seems like a sad way to live a life.
No, there isn't a big reason to go to SF (from our Oakland vantage point -- Ultrarunner also lives in Oakland).

I do go to SF a couple times a month, and never drive there because it isn't car friendly. I just take transit instead, It takes pretty much the same amount of time it would have taken me to drive and park. Downtown SF for me is a 15 minute drive when there is no traffic at all. (And even parking in the garage would add 10-15 minutes, it is pretty rare there is no traffic). To take the train? Well the train ride is a little less than 20 minutes, and it is a 5-7 minute drive to the train or a 10 minute bus ride (and of course about the same on a bike.). So transit is 25-30 minutes, and driving is 15-25 minutes in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions are pretty rare (no traffic on the bridge, quick trip off the ramp, limited street congestion around downtown) so usually it is more like 30-35 minutes....

And there you have it, transit ends up winning.
Quote:
Hardware stores and grocery stores should have some sort of parking lots, even in Park Slope there is a grocery store with a small parking lot, though most people live in easy walking distance to it and do walk to get their groceries.
I go to the Target in SF fairly often, even though Target is a 10 minute drive for me. It is no big deal to carry 1-2 bags of stuff on transit, so I just pack all the trips in one if they are convenient. On the other hand, I never go to the Safeway in the strip mall, because the parking lot is so huge and Pedestrian unfriendly, I just as soon avoid it, even though I pass it often on my transit or bike routes. I just end up choosing a different store that isn't such a pain to not drive to.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,523,816 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
No, there isn't a big reason to go to SF (from our Oakland vantage point -- Ultrarunner also lives in Oakland).

I do go to SF a couple times a month, and never drive there because it isn't car friendly. I just take transit instead, It takes pretty much the same amount of time it would have taken me to drive and park. Downtown SF for me is a 15 minute drive when there is no traffic at all. (And even parking in the garage would add 10-15 minutes, it is pretty rare there is no traffic). To take the train? Well the train ride is a little less than 20 minutes, and it is a 5-7 minute drive to the train or a 10 minute bus ride (and of course about the same on a bike.). So transit is 25-30 minutes, and driving is 15-25 minutes in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions are pretty rare (no traffic on the bridge, quick trip off the ramp, limited street congestion around downtown) so usually it is more like 30-35 minutes....

And there you have it, transit ends up winning.


I go to the Target in SF fairly often, even though Target is a 10 minute drive for me. It is no big deal to carry 1-2 bags of stuff on transit, so I just pack all the trips in one if they are convenient. On the other hand, I never go to the Safeway in the strip mall, because the parking lot is so huge and Pedestrian unfriendly, I just as soon avoid it, even though I pass it often on my transit or bike routes. I just end up choosing a different store that isn't such a pain to not drive to.
That is much different than saying one doesn't go to SF because it isn't car friendly is what is a sad way of life. I don't go to SF much because I don't live near SF, not because it is hard to drive in the city and parking is costly and I can't park outside of every place I want to go to.
 
Old 02-17-2014, 01:05 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,294,382 times
Reputation: 20418
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
That seems like a sad way to live a life.

Hardware stores and grocery stores should have some sort of parking lots, even in Park Slope there is a grocery store with a small parking lot, though most people live in easy walking distance to it and do walk to get their groceries.
My hobby and social circle is very much tied to antique autos... starting with my 1905 Curved Dash Oldsmobile.

Each year we have National meets and monthly local tours... San Francisco simply is not car friendly unless you have a lot of money. I have friends that pay $400 a month simply to garage their car in the city and hourly parking is outrageous in many areas.

For an individual, public transportation works quite well... not so with a family or traveling in a group.

Taking BART to the SF Airport can be $10 a person one way.

Don't get me wrong... SF has a beautiful skyline and one I enjoy looking at each evening as the sun goes down along with the city lights... from my cozy vantage in Oakland.
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