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Old 02-14-2014, 12:30 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,008 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The difference is you're just walking in a strip mall parking lot rather than to a strip mall, or between them. For entering, if the entrance is on the road (your example had a pedestrian walkway, not something I've seen much of) and it's busy, you'll walking through cars entering and exitting in a rather narrow space, so who may be turning rather quickly. And going between strip malls could involve a long detour through multiple parking lots, which adds up more than just one parking lot walk. Your posts seem focused on just walking within the strip mall parking lot.
I just want to focus on this one paragraph. Take a look at the strip mall I posted above. There is sidewalk all the way to the entrances, and there are several entrances. You can choose to use one of the more auxiliary entrances where there are few cars. You can actually walk in on the west side (by the bank that is for sale) barely having to leave sidewalk. The bank is empty, so no one is coming out the drive through. Plus, if you walk facing traffic, as you should, the cars are likely to see you, and they're not going very fast. In fact, cars aren't going very fast throughout a strip mall. Didn't we just have a long thread about how everyone should use the streets and the risk of injury from auto accidents is very low at a slow speed? While I'm not totally buying that, I think the "risks" to pedestrians are highly over-rated in many cases.

I was just at this strip mall this morning. One does have to cross a fairly busy road (Highway 42) from the west, but there is a crossing light at S. Boulder Rd. I have seen people crossing there, even with baby strollers.
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...d=0CKgBEPwSMAs

 
Old 02-14-2014, 01:31 PM
 
8,977 posts, read 8,109,767 times
Reputation: 19497
Quote:
Additionally, strip malls not only don't look near as nice as their walkable counterparts, they take up massive space. They are an eyesore. Let me ask you, which looks better: this or this? One can fit much more business without taking up near as much space. Also, did I mention that these example are right across the street from each other? So you can get a proper glimpse at how that strip mall (like many strip malls) destroy the urban fabric that surrounds them.
The majority of customers, will be driving to the shopping area of their choice. In the first example you see lots of cars in the parking lot. There is a place for the people to park so they can shop. In the other example there is no parking, and not there are no people walking down the street. One side of the street with the parking lot will do lots of business, and the ones on the other side of the street will do very little. The one side has a big busy grocery store, with parking for customers. The other side cannot have such stores, as parking is needed for them.

Note it is a busy street. Note the parking lot has lots of cars. Parking is needed for the businesses that want a steady flow of customers. To try to make everything walkable in an area such as this is not even reasonable. The heavy car traffic, says this is not a walkable shopping area and people are going shopping using cars.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 01:51 PM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,264 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
Responses in bold, but more below:

If they want to walk to where they shop, they should have the right to. This is a country based on rights, isn't it?
Actually they don't have any such right. They don't even have a right to be on the property. Next.

Quote:
And though the "everyone uses cars" principle works in the suburbs, it doesn't work quite so well in city limits, where people prefer to walk or take transit everywhere. Strip malls are wholly out of place in dense and even partially dense areas.
??? you hardly speak for the city population - or the merchants.
Who are you to dictate that the owner of the property needs to conform to your personal opinion as to what the property should look like? Your diatribe about protecting "rights" that don't actually exist is a common tactic for trying to rationalize abrogating the actual existing rights of others.

Quote:
Besides, what about the people who live within 2 miles of the strip mall, rather than 20? Those people are not only much more likely to use that strip mall, they can easily walk or bike to it. Of course, said strip mall is designed in a manner that makes it impossible to actually walk across the parking lot to the businesses themselves, thus discouraging shoppers there and denying them potential business.
Maybe they would use the strip mall, maybe they wouldn't. Depends on the goods and services offered. It's interesting that these mythical folks can somehow make the trek for the two miles with the plan to make the same trek back burdened with goods and yet you believe the parking lot poses some insurmountable barrier for these individuals. Did you actually read what you wrote?

Quote:
Additionally, strip malls not only don't look near as nice as their walkable counterparts,
Your personal opinion. Now your true objective has become apparent. Like all the other elitists, the other chaff was about rationalizing why the world needs to change to meet your personal aesthetic preferences.
Quote:
they take up massive space.
Your personal opinion.
Quote:
They are an eyesore.
Your personal opinion.
Quote:
Let me ask you, which looks better: this or this?
Irrelevant red herring.
Quote:
One can fit much more business without taking up near as much space.
As between an irrelevant bystander or the owner of the property, the owner's decision should be the controlling factor as to how many businesses or what types of businesses, etc. to support in the mall.

Quote:
Also, did I mention that these example are right across the street from each other?
So? If it is an "experiment" you can see which one works for the businesses. Having them in proximity to each might well draw more business than either center would have had independently. Still a "so what".

Quote:
So you can get a proper glimpse at how that strip mall (like many strip malls) destroy the urban fabric that surrounds them.
the useless meaningless "urban fabric" term again. The term has been proven time and time again in this forum to mean only things aesthetically pleasing to self-selected planners. Maybe you should re-define your view of "urban fabric".

Last edited by IC_deLight; 02-14-2014 at 01:59 PM..
 
Old 02-14-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,674,744 times
Reputation: 26666
I went to my pedestrian hostile strip mall last night. It barely has any crosswalks. And the streets the separate the stores have speed limits of 30mph. One of the most difficult portions is going from Target to Best Buy.

There is a cross walk to cross to the BBY side, but the BBY parking lot has no designated pedestrians marking through the cross walk. And you have to cross the driveway to get in. The driveway faces a 3 way stop sign, but the BBY driveway has no stop signs. So when you are walking (or driving really) you think you have the right of way, but the BBY driveway has cars speeding out and not looking out for the people at the stop signs. And these stop signs have a really high number of people running them. Generally speaking, every time I go there I see one car run the stop sign.

Now lets go back to the Target. There is a sidewalk to Target...from the main street. But the designated walkway only covers half of the route from the parking lot to the door on one aisle. Inexplicably, there are only 2 ways out of the target parking lot, and the main one is a maze. Basically everyone needs to make several turns, and then there is only space for one car to "wait" to turn out on to the arterial street to exit the strip mall. And then there is another driveway across from Target for another store. And then it is about 1/2 block from the stop signs protecting BBY. Basically it is a disaster. People shopping at target can hardly see when it is time to get out. And for any pedestrians coming from inside the strip mall, they have to walk through the congested driveway, where cars are coming from all angles trying to find a gap in the traffic to get back to the main road.

http://goo.gl/maps/Rj1rs

It is crazy!
 
Old 02-14-2014, 03:42 PM
 
26,591 posts, read 52,303,280 times
Reputation: 20428
Traditional strip malls don't generally have several Target size shops... and almost always under 100,000 square feet total.

I think anything with a Target or BB is on the order of a Regional Center.

On review the Wiki definition of Strip Mall has been revised and says you are correct.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_mall
 
Old 02-14-2014, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,085,690 times
Reputation: 12641
And yet all the people who parked in Target parking lot manage to walk across a parking lot from their parked cars without a problem.

I'm all for strip malls being better designed for pedestrains. They nearly universally ARE being better designed nowadays for pedestrians than they used to. They key is reasonable.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4957...aINyTUQA3A!2e0

'70s or '80s? Strip mall in the Pocket neighborhood of Sacramento. It's a "suburban" neighborhood, but has high transit usage as far as Sacramento goes. Note the walkways.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4954...z17gcTNlfw!2e0

'Nother walkway, in case you came from over the freeway. Given freeway crossings don't make great pedestrian experiences, but hey, I've pushed a stalled 500 pound motorcycle over that freeway. Crossing the onramps isn't great but it is doable, even when pushing a 500 pound motorcycle. Biggest complaint there would be the sidewalks had no ramp for, say, a wheel chair (or a motorcycle). So I had to walk on the shoulder pushing a motorcycle up hill rather than the sidewalk. That'd never be approved now because of ADA.

satellite view:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4946.../data=!3m1!1e3

Lots of marked crosswalks and sidewalks. Yes, you probably will have to walk down an aisle, unless you want to walk all the way to the end. This isn't something that normal people find "difficult." That's how drivers get from their car to the store. Most new strip malls pretty much look like that these days, at least here.

Some Walmarts in Sacramento:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6365.../data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/search/w.../data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/search/w.../data=!3m1!1e3

Last one is a more typical neighborhood stripmalls:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/w.../data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/search/R.../data=!3m1!1e3

Second one is pretty old but has had the common pedestrian amenities retrofitted in since that's easy to do and doesn't cost much.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,674,744 times
Reputation: 26666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
And yet all the people who parked in Target parking lot manage to walk across a parking lot from their parked cars without a problem.
Getting to Target is not so bad. Going from Target to Best Buy or Home Depot or Office Depot etc is not easy or pedestrian friendly. Or car friendly for that matter. It is a total planning disaster. There are no links between the stores.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 04:20 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,859,930 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I went to my pedestrian hostile strip mall last night. It barely has any crosswalks. And the streets the separate the stores have speed limits of 30mph. One of the most difficult portions is going from Target to Best Buy.

There is a cross walk to cross to the BBY side, but the BBY parking lot has no designated pedestrians marking through the cross walk. And you have to cross the driveway to get in. The driveway faces a 3 way stop sign, but the BBY driveway has no stop signs. So when you are walking (or driving really) you think you have the right of way, but the BBY driveway has cars speeding out and not looking out for the people at the stop signs. And these stop signs have a really high number of people running them. Generally speaking, every time I go there I see one car run the stop sign.

Now lets go back to the Target. There is a sidewalk to Target...from the main street. But the designated walkway only covers half of the route from the parking lot to the door on one aisle. Inexplicably, there are only 2 ways out of the target parking lot, and the main one is a maze. Basically everyone needs to make several turns, and then there is only space for one car to "wait" to turn out on to the arterial street to exit the strip mall. And then there is another driveway across from Target for another store. And then it is about 1/2 block from the stop signs protecting BBY. Basically it is a disaster. People shopping at target can hardly see when it is time to get out. And for any pedestrians coming from inside the strip mall, they have to walk through the congested driveway, where cars are coming from all angles trying to find a gap in the traffic to get back to the main road.

http://goo.gl/maps/Rj1rs

It is crazy!

I think I have to disagree with this. It is walkable just not convenient to walk due to large distances between crosswalks and large distances between stores. There are sidewalks and the there are connections to the sidewalk on the street but few of these stores are the kind would benefit much from increased walkability. They are not a say a bakery that might lure a pedestrian in with smells or an display(I have never been tempted to stop, park my car and go into a bakery unless I intended to go there. I have been lured into them as a pedestrian.). They are not small coffee houses that people in the neighborhood hang at.

I also don't see much nearby housing or bus routes(could be there but didn't see any signs) that could supply pedestrians for it to be worth the stores adding more pedestrian access.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,085,690 times
Reputation: 12641
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Getting to Target is not so bad. Going from Target to Best Buy or Home Depot or Office Depot etc is not easy or pedestrian friendly. Or car friendly for that matter. It is a total planning disaster. There are no links between the stores.
None of those fences are designed. More like thrown up due to on-the-ground conditions.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Northeast
1,887 posts, read 1,793,647 times
Reputation: 3737
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Yet people walk outside fine in Boston, don't see how the weather makes much of a difference.
Real Estate in Boston is far to valuable to construct a strip mall. The only places around Boston you might find
a strip mall is the lower income areas, and even that is rare..

Of course people in the city walk to all destinations with aid of public transportation and such, but you will not find any strip malls in the financial distract, beacon hill, China town, the north end etc...

Outside of Boston proper, places like Chelsea you will, but not downtown..

Just want to add that the weather does make a difference as folks who live in places southie , hyde park, the north end and Beacon Hill fight over a parking spot on their street in the winter. The standing rule is that if the person shoveled out where their car was parked after a snowstorm, then placed a cone their to mark it as their spot...it's their spot.

This practice is a long tradition around here but right now being challenged by some coalition of sorts and the new mayor
it seems is gonna let this one ride..I could provide a link but honestly don't have the energy. Any google search can get one up to speed as this was a major topic on the news today in Boston..

Last edited by brienzi; 02-14-2014 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: More info..
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