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Old 06-23-2014, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,692,971 times
Reputation: 26671

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
So, you don't think that a change of environment wouldn't help at least some of the students in the HS across town? I only ask because I've seen students from such neighborhoods improve with a chance of school environment or in spite of the school environment like this: Thomas Sowell - "The Education of Minority Children"

Also, this post also illustrates that minority isn't an one size fits all phrase, as it appears that one school has a more selective minority population than another in terms of status in their homelands and how they arrived to the US.
I don't know if it actually works. I went to a school in San Jose where kids were bussed in from East San Jose. Now I was only in elementary school when that happened, and it was only 2 years for my time before my family moved away. One of my then classmates, the only one I have run into, happens to be a successful lawyer, and she did come from East San Jose.

But what really happens, particularly if the school in question is filled with neighborhood kids, is that for the bussed in kids, it is harder to build a social circle, since everyone else lives 3 blocks down the road and you know, plays on the weekend. Although kids are so scheduled now, it could be very different. But when I was a kids I mostly only played with my neighbors. I did get to know a few of the "new kids" and my parents encouraged it, but my circumstances were quite different. Before kids got bussed in, we had like 2 other black students besides me. After the busing, we added several more black students and our first latino ones. The schools was mostly white with a handful of Asian people. So my parents thought it was good for me to get to hang out with other black kids too.

But anyway, I think school personality is really critical, for a high achieving kid, they ae going to do well no matter what environment they are in. Going to a "better" or "more affluent" schools gives that kid access to better programs and more AP classes so they will be better prepared for college. School expectations matter as well. If you aren't in a school, no matter what your ability level is, that doesn't think you will be a success, you won't do well and reach your full potential.

My sister went to a middle class high school with lots of college educated parents. Her school had really low expectation for the kids (also in the Bay Area). Teachers/counselors and so on told the kids to aim for community college. Not 4 year schools or anything else. My sister's guidance counselor thought my sister was crazy for talking about going to UCLA and Berkeley and kept encouraging community colleges and schools in the Cal State system. My parents set a high bar for us...and my sister turned out just fine, going to Northwestern. And her guidance counselor kept asking her why she didn't just go to UC Davis........

Anyway, this is a really good story about the re-segreation of our schools and the impacts:
Segregation Now ... - The Atlantic
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,436 posts, read 11,941,006 times
Reputation: 10542
To be clear, I was not saying that I think all cities are heading into an entirely family hostile direction. It was only that SportyandMisty seemed to be saying "if cities don't attract parents, what's the big deal?" I do think it would be unhealthy if city cores ended up totally child free places, but I don't see that trend really happening yet in most cities. Instead you see a setup where probably the absolute number of upper-middle income families continues to rise, but this is largely masked by a continued decline in the number of working class families.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
And why is this a problem that needs to be solved?
Well, if you're actually a fan of Jane Jacobs, than the exact sort of vibrancy and mixed uses she called for in a dynamic urban neighborhood also mean the population of a neighborhood, as well as the businesses catering to it, should not be a monoculture. Indeed, certain parts of Manhattan have been noted recently to be drifting towards a "nightscape" - so dominated by bars that there are few storefronts of any sort open during the day. This does not a dynamic neighborhood make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
On the flip side, I know lots of people my age or younger involved in their communities. I am one of the "most involved" in my own social circle, I pay attention the city politics and developments. I have a former colleague who is the president of his own neighborhood improvement district, and is working on building a dog park in his neighborhood.
I'm pretty sure I'm almost the exact same age as you. I'm really not all that much older than the 20somethings which have flooded my neighborhood now, I'm just in a different mental space because I can't partake of many of the new "amenities" flooding my neighborhood without use of a babysitter. In general, I should (and probably do) have a lot more in common with my younger neighbors than many of my older ones. I just rarely see them, and they rarely interact with me or each other. When one of us goes to a community meeting about a new development in the neighborhood, for example, not only are we typically the youngest people in the room, but over half of the crowd are senior citizens.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:37 PM
 
56,676 posts, read 80,995,527 times
Reputation: 12530
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I don't know if it actually works. I went to a school in San Jose where kids were bussed in from East San Jose. Now I was only in elementary school when that happened, and it was only 2 years for my time before my family moved away. One of my then classmates, the only one I have run into, happens to be a successful lawyer, and she did come from East San Jose.

But what really happens, particularly if the school in question is filled with neighborhood kids, is that for the bussed in kids, it is harder to build a social circle, since everyone else lives 3 blocks down the road and you know, plays on the weekend. Although kids are so scheduled now, it could be very different. But when I was a kids I mostly only played with my neighbors. I did get to know a few of the "new kids" and my parents encouraged it, but my circumstances were quite different. Before kids got bussed in, we had like 2 other black students besides me. After the busing, we added several more black students and our first latino ones. The schools was mostly white with a handful of Asian people. So my parents thought it was good for me to get to hang out with other black kids too.

But anyway, I think school personality is really critical, for a high achieving kid, they ae going to do well no matter what environment they are in. Going to a "better" or "more affluent" schools gives that kid access to better programs and more AP classes so they will be better prepared for college. School expectations matter as well. If you aren't in a school, no matter what your ability level is, that doesn't think you will be a success, you won't do well and reach your full potential.

My sister went to a middle class high school with lots of college educated parents. Her school had really low expectation for the kids (also in the Bay Area). Teachers/counselors and so on told the kids to aim for community college. Not 4 year schools or anything else. My sister's guidance counselor thought my sister was crazy for talking about going to UCLA and Berkeley and kept encouraging community colleges and schools in the Cal State system. My parents set a high bar for us...and my sister turned out just fine, going to Northwestern. And her guidance counselor kept asking her why she didn't just go to UC Davis........

Anyway, this is a really good story about the re-segreation of our schools and the impacts:
Segregation Now ... - The Atlantic
Great points and I think the key word you used was expectations. It really comes down to that whether it is from the home, school or community/neighborhood. I can relate, because while my parents didn't finish HS, they knew enough to put us in school environments, public and/or private, that set us up for success. By the time I and my younger sister came along, I already had a brother and 3 sisters graduate from college. So, expectations were high from home all the way through the school I attended. So, having those high expectations somewhere along the line.

I also want to say that I'm not necessarily stating that bussing is the way to go, but I think that open enrollment should be an option for individual students. Sadly, the pinnacle of school integration and high achievement seemed to have occurred from the late 1970's to the early/mid 1990's in this country and as your article illustrates.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,452,062 times
Reputation: 15684
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
So, you don't think that a change of environment wouldn't help at least some of the students in the HS across town? I only ask because I've seen students from such neighborhoods improve with a chance of school environment or in spite of the school environment like this: Thomas Sowell - "The Education of Minority Children"

Also, this post also illustrates that minority isn't an one size fits all phrase, as it appears that one school has a more selective minority population than another in terms of status in their homelands and how they arrived to the US.
I'm not a professional educator, so I hesitate to offer an opinion - but intuitively it sure seems that you should be right - a change of environment should make a difference.

In heavily Asian Cupertino, educators sometimes decry what they refer to as the "HYPS" syndrome -- if the graduating high school student isn't admitted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford, it is almost considered an affront against their ancestors. Students get this attitude at home. I'm sure everyone has read "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...e_Tiger_Mother The pressure on the students is intense, with a rash of suicides among high school students every few years. And, white families moving to Silicon Valley for work frequently hear "don't move to Cupertino because your kids won't be able to compete in school."

Last edited by SportyandMisty; 06-23-2014 at 09:23 PM..
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,452,062 times
Reputation: 15684
Beyond good schools and a 3rd or 4th bedroom, access to a parks, etc, as families grow, they need space for their stuff.
By stuff, I mean recreational possessions that you'd find stored in the garage of a suburban house. Skis, bicycles, camping gear all come to mind, as do tools & workbenches and the like. True, living in an urban environment you probably won't own a chainsaw let alone a chainsaw sharpener, but even in an urban environment I would want a place for tools to work on my car. Oh yeah - you need space for cars, as in plural. Perhaps you no longer need a daily driver as you can use mass transit, but even so, cars for me are a must. After all, what would I use to pull my personal watercraft or snowmobiles?

Maybe I'm just not the target market for urban life. I lived in urban Chicago (Hyde Park) while I was in grad school, but since then I've been a suburban kind of guy.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:36 PM
 
56,676 posts, read 80,995,527 times
Reputation: 12530
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Beyond good schools and a 3rd or 4th bedroom, access to a parks, etc, as families grow, they need space for their stuff.
By stuff, I mean recreational possessions that you'd find stored in the garage of a suburban house. Skis, bicycles, camping gear all come to mind, as do tools & workbenches and the like. True, living in an urban environment you probably won't own a chainsaw let alone a chainsaw sharpener, but even in an urban environment I would want a place for tools to work on my car. Oh yeah - you need space for cars, as in plural. Perhaps you no longer need a daily driver as you can use mass transit, but even so, cars for me are a must. After all, what would I use to pull my personal watercraft or snowmobiles?

Maybe I'm just not the target market for urban life. I lived in urban Chicago (Hyde Park) while I was in grad school, but since then I've been a suburban kind of guy.
I think it depends on the city neighborhood as well. I think people may have a certain idea of what an urban neighborhood looks like or may feel that certain amenities are only attainable in certain types of city neighborhoods.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,692,971 times
Reputation: 26671
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I think it depends on the city neighborhood as well. I think people may have a certain idea of what an urban neighborhood looks like or may feel that certain amenities are only attainable in certain types of city neighborhoods.
Yup. I have friends in all sorts of parts in Oakland. Some in condos or apartments. Others in single family homes with good sized yards and garages. There is no one neighborhood type in a city. But most people I know, no matter what sort of housing they have, live within a couple blocks of a frequent transit option.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:07 PM
 
1,211 posts, read 888,739 times
Reputation: 1107
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The "young professional" model isn't what we want as a sole model for the future of cities if we actually want neighborhoods to be more than a collection of apartments near bars and restaurants.
Not as a model, but I appreciate that the reason why my neighborhood is so vibrant is that these young professionals live here and are able to keep the local businesses thriving. I don't keep the local irish pub in business, but I still enjoy taking the kids to lunch there occasionally, especially when they have the live bluegrass music on weekend afternoons.

Another factor here is density. Even if 50% of the population is young professionals, if 20% is families, you will still have many many more other households with children within a 0.5 mile radius than you will in most suburbs where 35% are families. This means more kids at the local playground, and more friends whose homes are walkable from yours.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:58 PM
 
8,328 posts, read 14,570,857 times
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Why are people so convinced that the "young professionals" are the only ones who want to live downtown?

They're the entry-level urbanite.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:47 AM
 
56,676 posts, read 80,995,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Why are people so convinced that the "young professionals" are the only ones who want to live downtown?

They're the entry-level urbanite.
Empty nesters are also going back into cities too. So, many older residents once their children are out of the house, they actually move back into the city. So, the interest of living in the city cuts across people of various ages.
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