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Empty nesters are also going back into cities too. So, many older residents once their children are out of the house, they actually move back into the city. So, the interest of living in the city cuts across people of various ages.
Not in the numbers the fluff articles would have you believe. Most retirees "retire in place". Most stay in the homes they've bought and paid for.
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Originally Posted by SportyandMisty
And why is this a problem that needs to be solved?
Are you familiar with some of the utopian societies of the 19th century that didn't believe in marriage (and therefore childbearing/raising)? They though their numbers would increase by recruitment. The Harmonites of Pennsylvania, in my home county, are one example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_Society; ditto, the Shakers of upstate NY and New England, Shakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you don't have kids, your society will wither. I have long been concerned that this particular form of gentrification could lead to what some have posted on here-business areas full of bars, other nightlife and businesses catering to young hipsters to the exclusion of much of anything else.
Frankly, I find eschaton's experience as an urban father more valid than the statements of people without kids.
Not in the numbers the fluff articles would have you believe. Most retirees "retire in place". Most stay in the homes they've bought and paid for.
Most do, but considering say, parts of Florida that have had their demographics transformed by elderly retiree transplants. You don't need most retirees to cause changes.
Quote:
Are you familiar with some of the utopian societies of the 19th century that didn't believe in marriage (and therefore childbearing/raising)? They though their numbers would increase by recruitment. The Harmonites of Pennsylvania, in my home county, are one example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_Society; ditto, the Shakers of upstate NY and New England, Shakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's a rather different situation as it involves changing your habits drastically and leaving mainstream society. If social or economic factors mean young people favor certain city areas you could have neighborhoods dominated by the 20s / early 30s. The biggest reason young people favor cities, IMO, is a high concentration of other young people like them. They leave as they get older and are replaced by new young people. Not saying this is a good setup but it can be stable.
Most do, but considering say, parts of Florida that have had their demographics transformed by elderly retiree transplants. You don't need most retirees to cause changes.
That's a rather different situation as it involves changing your habits drastically and leaving mainstream society. If social or economic factors mean young people favor certain city areas you could have neighborhoods dominated by the 20s / early 30s. The biggest reason young people favor cities, IMO, is a high concentration of other young people like them. They leave as they get older and are replaced by new young people. Not saying this is a good setup but it can be stable.
I think it's a good analogy. Those were societies w/o kids. The Harmonites were very involved in mainstream society, and laid out my home town.
I don't think a constant turnover of city residents as they "age out" of bars, restaurant meals every night, etc is particularly stable.
I think it's a good analogy. Those were societies w/o kids. The Harmonites were very involved in mainstream society, and laid out my home town.
The difference is a society that's still separate, you're expected to stay in the habits for life. A culture where go to college -> live in the city for a decade -> move out to the suburbs, could keep repeating. No, it's not the most stable, but it's not the same.
In the reverse, many "family friendly" suburbs get avoided by those without children.
Empty nesters are also going back into cities too. So, many older residents once their children are out of the house, they actually move back into the city. So, the interest of living in the city cuts across people of various ages.
I'm part of the age bracket in between "hipster twentysomething" and "empty nester." I see plenty of people my age in my urban neighborhood. I also see plenty of "empty nesters" but for the most part, this neighborhood is where they raised their kids. And a lot of the people in my age brackets, and the younger folks, are also raising their kids here. They're buying here, and they seem more likely to stay here.
The main exception is that, because housing is so expensive, a lot of young people seeking to buy are moving to Oak Park, a formerly high-crime neighborhood right next door to mine, that is turning into the new hipster urban district.
Beyond good schools and a 3rd or 4th bedroom, access to a parks, etc, as families grow, they need space for their stuff.
By stuff, I mean recreational possessions that you'd find stored in the garage of a suburban house. Skis, bicycles, camping gear all come to mind, as do tools & workbenches and the like. True, living in an urban environment you probably won't own a chainsaw let alone a chainsaw sharpener, but even in an urban environment I would want a place for tools to work on my car. Oh yeah - you need space for cars, as in plural. Perhaps you no longer need a daily driver as you can use mass transit, but even so, cars for me are a must. After all, what would I use to pull my personal watercraft or snowmobiles?
Maybe I'm just not the target market for urban life. I lived in urban Chicago (Hyde Park) while I was in grad school, but since then I've been a suburban kind of guy.
Yeah, I think it's just your perception. We did just fine as a one-car family, although we're briefly at two cars again (more or less until the old car dies). I have maybe one time a month I need to use the second car when my wife is already driving somewhere, so it's mostly useless and we could drop it pretty easily with only minor inconvenience in our life.
Tools fit fine in the basement, and none of us are sporty in the slightest. I do wish I had somewhere to store our bikes outside of the elements though - the chains tend to get so rusty in the wintertime.
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Originally Posted by wburg
Why are people so convinced that the "young professionals" are the only ones who want to live downtown?
They're the entry-level urbanite.
I don't think anyone (well, not me anyway) claimed that these are the sole people who want to live in dense, walkable, mixed-use urban areas. However, they are the only market segment that developers are currently catering to.
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Originally Posted by nei
That's a rather different situation as it involves changing your habits drastically and leaving mainstream society. If social or economic factors mean young people favor certain city areas you could have neighborhoods dominated by the 20s / early 30s. The biggest reason young people favor cities, IMO, is a high concentration of other young people like them. They leave as they get older and are replaced by new young people. Not saying this is a good setup but it can be stable.
I think you're generally right here. The funny thing about this setup though is the other young people in a neighborhood primarily form the "backdrop" or "setting" of the neighborhood, with relatively little in the way of social interaction. I mean, the shared amenities which being around other people of a similar age range/interest grouping means you have many options which cater to you, but chances are slim outside of trying to chat someone up at a bar you'll speak to most of them.
I think it's a good analogy. Those were societies w/o kids. The Harmonites were very involved in mainstream society, and laid out my home town.
I don't think a constant turnover of city residents as they "age out" of bars, restaurant meals every night, etc is particularly stable.
I think you misunderstand the current generation of people. People under roughly 40 have different lifestyle preferences. Essentially all of my peers, kids or no kids, want to live in a walkable community. Now the parents go to bars less than I do. We go to the same times of restaurants. We all go to coffeeshops. We all want to walk to the farmers market. They go out to eat once a week, or get takeout and take it home. Fancy takeout is all the rage for upper middle class professionals around here. Kids or no kids.
Not everyone wants to move to the suburbs. My neighborhood is pretty much evenly split between young families, retirees, empty nesters and childless professionals. The neighborhood next to mine is packed with kids and offers many of the same amenities with mostly single family homes. Someone opened up a wine bar for "parents." It opens up in the afternoon and has room for strollers with child friendly fare. It is 2 blocks down from a middle school.
More and more "younger" people have different lifestyle preferences.
Yeah, I think it's just your perception. We did just fine as a one-car family, although we're briefly at two cars again (more or less until the old car dies). I have maybe one time a month I need to use the second car when my wife is already driving somewhere, so it's mostly useless and we could drop it pretty easily with only minor inconvenience in our life.
Tools fit fine in the basement, and none of us are sporty in the slightest. I do wish I had somewhere to store our bikes outside of the elements though - the chains tend to get so rusty in the wintertime.
You can't put your bicycles in the basement? Or some entranceway. I wouldn't want to store my bicycle outside.
You can't put your bicycles in the basement? Or some entranceway. I wouldn't want to store my bicycle outside.
I do take my bike down to the basement during the winter, but due to the orientation of the basement stairs it's a pain getting it up and down, and I typically only do so once per year.
The rest of the time, rain or shine, the bicycle has to stay outside. We don't really have a covered porch in the front or rear of our house, and no easy way to add one. Thus my bike gets some minor rust over cycling season, but a scrub with some oil and a brass brush does away with the worst of it.
I think you misunderstand the current generation of people. People under roughly 40 have different lifestyle preferences. Essentially all of my peers, kids or no kids, want to live in a walkable community. Now the parents go to bars less than I do. We go to the same times of restaurants. We all go to coffeeshops. We all want to walk to the farmers market. They go out to eat once a week, or get takeout and take it home. Fancy takeout is all the rage for upper middle class professionals around here. Kids or no kids.
Not everyone wants to move to the suburbs. My neighborhood is pretty much evenly split between young families, retirees, empty nesters and childless professionals. The neighborhood next to mine is packed with kids and offers many of the same amenities with mostly single family homes. Someone opened up a wine bar for "parents." It opens up in the afternoon and has room for strollers with child friendly fare. It is 2 blocks down from a middle school.
More and more "younger" people have different lifestyle preferences.
Considering I have two kids, ages 27 and 30, and they have spouses/SOs, and most of my friends have kids of similar ages, I think I have a pretty good handle on "what the current generation wants". My older daughter and her DH bought a house in the burbs that is equidistant from both of their jobs. There isn't much of any other location, and certainly no "urban" location, that would enable them to do so. Like many burbs, there is a strip mall within walking distance of their house with a Kohl's, a Chili's, a grocery store (Albertson's, don't know if you have those in Cali) and a bunch of other stuff. They can also walk to the Light Rail, I think. I know they've used it to go to Denver. The other one is currently living in-town St. Paul MN and discovered the joys of no on-street parking, esp. during the winter when they had to move the cars constantly for plowing, plus she got a ticket for abandoned car b/c it hadn't been moved in several days one time. (This will change as she finally found a job!) They have lived in the burbs before, and I think are likely to live there again.
Why do you guys go to the Farmer's Market if you like take-out? Just askin'.
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