U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-02-2014, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,896 posts, read 7,660,338 times
Reputation: 4508

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Education is important to city residents. Just go to the first page of ANY city forum and look at the threads about where to live. People want good schools! There is little difference between what constitutes a good education in Oakland vs Philly. Some rural areas may want agricultural education, but that's about it. There are some basics that every child in every district needs.

It's easy to just shunt if off to some other forum. The ed forum rarely looks at schools from an urban planning perspective. I don't think city governments should get into curriculum, if kids should eat with their classes at lunch vs with their friends, stuff that gets discussed on education.

Looking for good high schools near Buckley AFB
Autism Services?
(From p. 2 but a very common topic)
Tips on Family Friendly Neighborhoods in Pittsburgh (Have to read the OP)
And what is an "urban planning perspective?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-02-2014, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,681,041 times
Reputation: 26671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Education is important to city residents. Just go to the first page of ANY city forum and look at the threads about where to live. People want good schools! There is little difference between what constitutes a good education in Oakland vs Philly. Some rural areas may want agricultural education, but that's about it. There are some basics that every child in every district needs.

It's easy to just shunt if off to some other forum. The ed forum rarely looks at schools from an urban planning perspective. I don't think city governments should get into curriculum, if kids should eat with their classes at lunch vs with their friends, stuff that gets discussed on education.

Looking for good high schools near Buckley AFB
Autism Services?
(From p. 2 but a very common topic)
Tips on Family Friendly Neighborhoods in Pittsburgh (Have to read the OP)
You are completely misreading my statement. Schools are important for a city's health. But I don't think they fit into this forum, as it has been defined by City Data.

Planning has little to do with school quality. Planning is more about placement/roads/access.

We don't delve much past the urban form in this particular forum.

Urban Planning isn't quite interdisciplinary yet, although there are other groups that do work from a multiple-discipline lens, like the Congress for New Urbanism.

Urban planning =/= urbanism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-02-2014, 01:07 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Education is important to city residents. Just go to the first page of ANY city forum and look at the threads about where to live. People want good schools! There is little difference between what constitutes a good education in Oakland vs Philly. Some rural areas may want agricultural education, but that's about it. There are some basics that every child in every district needs.

It's easy to just shunt if off to some other forum. The ed forum rarely looks at schools from an urban planning perspective. I don't think city governments should get into curriculum, if kids should eat with their classes at lunch vs with their friends, stuff that gets discussed on education.

Looking for good high schools near Buckley AFB
Autism Services?
(From p. 2 but a very common topic)
Tips on Family Friendly Neighborhoods in Pittsburgh (Have to read the OP)
I doubt the bolded should be discussed here! Though I know some cities have specialized schools with more focus on a particular curriculum. There probably is some input from the city government on making, or at least approving those schools.

There are plenty of things discussed in local forums that important to people making a moving choice that aren't discussed much. Certainly crime is an important issue in cities or choosing an urban neighborhood. It's not an urban planning issue, though something that can crop up when discussing cities. Plenty of posts here have little to do with practical things people moving to a neighborhood need. Neither does the about the forum sticky mention schools in examples of things that belong in this form (transit, gentrification, and urban form related topics are all listed):

Welcome to the Urban Planning forum!

there is a mention of issues related to cities, so schools can still count. But while anyone is welcome to post on schools and it is on topic for the forum, it's not really the main focus of the forum so you can't really expect to find lots of posts on the subject. Or complain about the lack of posts on schools.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-02-2014, 10:59 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
Reputation: 33077
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
And what is an "urban planning perspective?"
Briefly, as I'm on my my kindle. Planning housing so that there is land available for schools; joint use agreements for some facilities such as gyms and libraries,others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2014, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,896 posts, read 7,660,338 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Briefly, as I'm on my my kindle. Planning housing so that there is land available for schools; joint use agreements for some facilities such as gyms and libraries,others.
I thought it was common knowledge--in this forum--that these things are part of urban planning?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2014, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,432 posts, read 11,933,106 times
Reputation: 10539
I've posted on this numerous times, but IMHO the issues with urban schools are basically unsolveable, at least within the educational system.

It's pretty clear when you segregate out groups of students by their parents educational backgrounds, economic status, and race that the primary thing which distinguishes high-performing (usually suburban) and low performing (usually urban) schools is the different student demographics. And when you set up schools which scoop off the best-performing in urban districts, you end up with demographics more like a suburban area. For example Stuyvesant High School in NYC is 72% Asian, 24% non-Hispanic White, and 3% black and Latino, despite the district at large being 41% Latino, 28% black, 17% Asian, and 15% non-Hispanic white. Conversely, all studies I have seen suggest while there is a relatively small gap between black and white test scores in suburban schools when there is only a handful of black students, once it hits a tipping point the gap between blacks and whites grows to the point there is not an appreciable difference between the educational outcomes of inner-city and suburban blacks (adjusting for the slightly higher economic background of the latter).

I am not advocating for the Bell Curve here. For example, I have looked at the racial gaps in the British school system, and they are very different from our own. There the children of African immigrants score as highly as white kids, but Afro-Caribbean students (most of whom are biracial these days) do not. The worst performers tend to be those from Roma (gypsy) or Irish Traveler backgrounds. This seems to suggest that ethnicity matters in terms of performance due to internalized feelings regarding school performance among the students, not an inherent racial scale.

The only way to seriously improve urban schools is to get more middle-class parents of all races (but, predominantly, we're talking about white "urbanists" here) to enroll their children in the public school system. Everywhere middle-class white parents started enrolling their kids in city schools, those schools have shown marked improvement. Thus in many cases parents need to just "get over themselves" and realize that a school with mediocre test scores which is 60% black won't result in their kids ending up stupid.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2014, 07:50 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
It's pretty clear when you segregate out groups of students by their parents educational backgrounds, economic status, and race that the primary thing which distinguishes high-performing (usually suburban) and low performing (usually urban) schools is the different student demographics. And when you set up schools which scoop off the best-performing in urban districts, you end up with demographics more like a suburban area. For example Stuyvesant High School in NYC is 72% Asian, 24% non-Hispanic White, and 3% black and Latino, despite the district at large being 41% Latino, 28% black, 17% Asian, and 15% non-Hispanic white.
Stuyvesant high school demographics don't resemble a suburban school at all. There is almost no suburban NYC school that 72% Asian. Most, except for particularly bad suburban schools, do not have 47% of its students eligible for free or reduced lunch as Stuyvesant does. Nor do many (any?) suburban schools have a 2170 average SAT score. Nitpicking, but comparing a magnet school that chooses its students to a suburban school doesn't work well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2014, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,432 posts, read 11,933,106 times
Reputation: 10539
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Stuyvesant high school demographics don't resemble a suburban school at all. There is almost no suburban NYC school that 72% Asian. Most, except for particularly bad suburban schools, do not have 47% of its students eligible for free or reduced lunch as Stuyvesant does. Nor do many (any?) suburban schools have a 2170 average SAT score. Nitpicking, but comparing a magnet school that chooses its students to a suburban school doesn't work well.
True, but you can find suburban schools in California which have demographics relatively similar to those - at least when it comes to the racial breakdown, probably not the free/reduced lunch proportion.

Regardless, I understand why you picked this nit. Most of the Asian students at Stuyvesant are the children of lower-income Asian immigrants, who do quite well regardless of the perceived undesirability of the NYC school system as a whole. But it's still evidence that within the U.S. educational system as it stands there's almost a linear relationship between high performance and having few Black and Latino students.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2014, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,681,041 times
Reputation: 26671
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
True, but you can find suburban schools in California which have demographics relatively similar to those - at least when it comes to the racial breakdown, probably not the free/reduced lunch proportion.

Regardless, I understand why you picked this nit. Most of the Asian students at Stuyvesant are the children of lower-income Asian immigrants, who do quite well regardless of the perceived undesirability of the NYC school system as a whole. But it's still evidence that within the U.S. educational system as it stands there's almost a linear relationship between high performance and having few Black and Latino students.
It would also be good to note that generally speaking, teachers have bias against the black and latino kids and think they are "dumb" to be blunt, so they don't try as hard. Setting low expectations for certain kids and not others leads to issues!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ectations.html

Add that in with harsher punishments and high suspension rates, and you end up with a recipe for disaster. If you have a school where teachers set high expectations for all kids (and have appropriate resources and class sizes) kids from any background tend to do a lot better.

And trust me this bias absolutely exists, I'm black with college educated parents, and did well in school. I definitely ran into the low expectation teachers. Lucky for me they were few and far between and I did well. But not everyone lucks out. I had a terrible english teacher in high school who had low expectations for everyone. I just zoned out, the class was completely pointless. The only thing I learned was the lengths lazy people would go to game the system. (Book reports on song lyrics, taping the oral speech you were supposed to memorize to the chair in front of you, stealing the test answers from the teachers desk....). Sadly, the teacher didn't care enough to do better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2014, 02:28 PM
 
56,645 posts, read 80,952,685 times
Reputation: 12521
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Stuyvesant high school demographics don't resemble a suburban school at all. There is almost no suburban NYC school that 72% Asian. Most, except for particularly bad suburban schools, do not have 47% of its students eligible for free or reduced lunch as Stuyvesant does. Nor do many (any?) suburban schools have a 2170 average SAT score. Nitpicking, but comparing a magnet school that chooses its students to a suburban school doesn't work well.
Also, you have good magnet schools in Buffalo with such demographics: Hutchinson Central Technical High School - Public School (60% free/reduced lunch, with test scores at state average, grad rate at 80% with Black students at 84% and White students at 77% according to most recent NYSED school report card) 2013 | HUTCHINSON CENTRAL TECH HIGH SCHOOL - Report Card | New York State Education Department Data Site

City Honors School At Fosdick Masten Park - Public School (arguably the best public HS in NY State and 27% free/reduced lunch, grad rate at 98%) 2013 | CITY HONORS SCH-F MASTEN PK - Report Card | New York State Education Department Data Site

So, it will depend on the city and school as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top