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Old 02-20-2014, 11:05 AM
 
1,265 posts, read 2,155,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
The dense core of NYC is Manhattan . . . which annexed its "suburban" counties relatively recently. The boundaries of Paris have been fixed since before New Amsterdam. So the adjacent departments are not Nassau and Westchester but Staten Island, Queens, Hudson, etc.
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The current boundaries of the City of Paris are from 1860 with the Haussmannian works (there been little extensions in the 1920's with the addition of the Bois de Vincennes and Bois de Boulogne).
It is just 40 years before the annexion of Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and Staten Island in 1898.

Paris extension didn't go as far it was planned, in Haussmann plan the whole former Seine departement would have become the City of Paris but Paris Commune events stopped these plans.

City of Paris and the Seine departement before 1860


City of Paris and the Seine departement after 1929, the current size of the City Paris.


Seine departement has been abolished in 1968 and divided in four departements (Paris, Hauts de Seine, Seine Saint Denis, Val de Marne)
Those four departements are likely to be abolished in a close futur with the creation of the Metropole de Paris new adminstrative entity which will cover at least Paris and the three inner ring departements.
This new entity will carry many former municipal fonction, leaving the current City of Paris and other inner suburban muncipalities inside quite powerless (no more construction rights powers...).
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:21 AM
 
478 posts, read 1,697,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
What does that have to do with this thread? It would be nice to actually talk about some actual differences in city form / policy between Europe and the US rather than have it hijacked into the merits of cars vs transit

In any case, you can also drive to a restaurant 15 miles away in Europe.

Going back to the OP, the article ignores Canada and Australia, which while neither nearly as car dependent as the US, are still far more similar in built form to the US than Europe.
Good point, although both nations are still more car-dependent than most of Europe.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,294 posts, read 26,300,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Philly's inner 25 square miles (Center City, North and South Philly) in 1940 were around 40,000 ppsm, and it was probably denser in 1920 since most cities experienced decreases in household size/crowding during that period. I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 50,000 ppsm in 1920.
That's still a very big difference no matter how much leeway we give Philly. We know that Berlin had 1.9 million people within 25.5 sq. miles. Philly may have had around 40,000 ppsm (that could mean lower than 40,000 ppsm, meaning that Berlin was nearly twice as dense) or as high as 50,000 ppsm (which is speculative). Either way, you're talking about a difference of 34,608 or 24,608. It's not really "close" when another city has your entire population in a 25 sq. mile area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Philadelphia had 1.8 million people in 1920, Berlin 4 million, New York 5.6 million and London 7.6 million. My main point was that when you account for age and size, American cities don't have such a different pattern from European ones.
Boston and Philadelphia have a similar pattern to London and Berlin in a general sense. But it's hard not to notice that these cities are much denser and developed in their cores (we have to remember that there were no skyscrapers in these cities in 1920). We're talking about considerably higher streetwalls over a much larger area. And we can only imagine how different Berlin felt from Philadelphia before it was bombed into oblivion. Berlin feels much more developed than Philadelphia today. Philly surrenders itself to low-rise rowhome neighborhoods outside of Center City (and inside of it) very quickly whereas you can walk a much larger portion of Berlin or London and encounter multi-unit dwellings that rise up to five or six floors.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,294 posts, read 26,300,037 times
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Here's a pretty apples-to-apples comparison for London and Philadelphia.

Inner London (123 sq. mi.) reached peak population in 1911 at 4,998,237 persons. That's a population density of 40,636 persons per square mile.

Inner London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philadelphia reached peak population in 1950 at 2,071,065 persons. That's a population density of 15,455 persons per square mile.

Largest cities in the United States by population by decade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Taking RER through the Parisian suburbs looks so much different from taking Metro or Marc through the DC suburbs.


RER A Paris Metro - YouTube


MetroRail,Washington DC,ORANGE line to Vienna - YouTube
Those two videos are not exactly comparable.

Paris video shows a old railway section which opened in 1843 (except for the 5 last minutes).
Lands around trains stations have grown earlier, because people couldn't live too far of the transportation.
There is also the core of the towns that have been absorbed by the urban area.
You have to go a bit further of the train stations to see low density areas.

You will see the same kind of environment around the old suburban rail lines in the Northeastern corner of the United State.
The suburban areas around trains station have developed before the the rest.
Philadephia is sprawly, yet if you stay around the old suburban train stations, you will see denser urban neighborhood than in the rest of the suburbs.

DC video shows a railway line built in the 1980's in the middle of an highway.
In DC area, highways are rather distant of the cores in the middle of green land.
The combinaison of a much recent development and the limited acces highway don't favor high density and urban environment.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,294 posts, read 26,300,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Those two videos are not exactly comparable.

Paris video shows a old railway section which opened in 1843 (except for the 5 last minutes).
Lands around trains stations have grown earlier, because people couldn't live too far of the transportation.
There is also the core of the towns that have been absorbed by the urban area.
You have to go a bit further of the train stations to see low density areas.

You will see the same kind of environment around the old suburban rail lines in the Northeastern corner of the United State.
The suburban areas around trains station have developed before the the rest.
Philadephia is sprawly, yet if you stay around the old suburban train stations, you will see denser urban neighborhood than in the rest of the suburbs.

DC video shows a railway line built in the 1980's in the middle of an highway.
In DC area, highways are rather distant of the cores in the middle of green land.
The combinaison of a much recent development and the limited acces highway don't favor high density and urban environment.
Two questions for you.

1. Have you ever lived in Washington, DC for a year or longer?

2. Have you ever lived in Paris for a year or longer?
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:22 PM
 
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1) No but I have Google Earth to see the urban pattern.
2) I live in Paris area since July 2002.

I don't want to imply Paris area is not denser than Washington DC area (obviously Paris is much denser) but the two videos compare apples and oranges.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,294 posts, read 26,300,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Philly's inner 25 square miles (Center City, North and South Philly) in 1940 were around 40,000 ppsm, and it was probably denser in 1920 since most cities experienced decreases in household size/crowding during that period. I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 50,000 ppsm in 1920.
Just out of curiosity. Where are you getting your numbers from? Not saying I disagree with them. I just want to know the source.

This source states that South Philly's population peaked at 375,000 in 1920.

South Philadelphia: Mummers, Memories, and the Melrose Diner - Murray Dubin - Google Books

I couldn't find anything on Center City's historical population. Wiki says its population in 2010 was 57,239. Let's assume that in 1920 that number was 150,000, which I think is a more than generous estimate.

I couldn't find anything on North Philadelphia either. Let's say that it was equally dense as South Philly. So that's another 375,000 people in 9.7 square miles.

That gives us a total of 900,000 people in 21.4 miles. That's a density of 42,056 ppsm given the most generous population estimates.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,294 posts, read 26,300,037 times
Reputation: 11754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
1) No but I have Google Earth to see the urban pattern.
2) I live in Paris area since July 2002.

I don't want to imply Paris area is not denser than Washington DC area (obviously Paris is much denser) but the two videos compare apples and oranges.
No, they don't compare apples and oranges because the development pattern riding into DC would look the same whether you're coming in from Vienna, Greenbelt, Franconia-Springfield or Branch Avenue. In Paris, you see that kind of development from the RER taking Ligne B to Charles De Gaulle or Ligne A to Cergy Le Haut.

I mean, the big difference between Paris and DC is that I get can get off at Le Blanc Mesnil station and walk all the way to the Carrefour if I really wanted to. If I get off at the Branch Avenue station in Maryland, I can walk to some car dealerships if I can cross 6-8 lanes of traffic moving at upwards of 60 mph. It's virtually impossible to walk there.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:02 PM
 
1,265 posts, read 2,155,318 times
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The line in Washington DC was built in the middle of an highway in the 1980's.
The line in Paris was built in the 1840's.
There is a difference.

If the line in Paris was in the middle of an suburban highway and built in the 70's-80's (outside an Edge city) like in Washington DC video, the development pattern around the line would have been different than in the Paris video here.
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