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Old 02-20-2014, 04:00 PM
 
10,532 posts, read 7,505,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I enjoy your posts very much. I just love the way you compare apples to cantaloupes.
You just got called out. I looked up your suggested comparisons and found you are wrong. You have no response. Accept it, lack of density in cities is the result, not the cause.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
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FYI the Northeast corridor does have about 50,000,000 people in 50,000 square miles from Boston to DC. It seems like it should be able to support high speed rail, and maybe California too. Elsewhere I suspect 70-120mph rail with reliable service would probably be more appropriate.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:02 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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this might be helpful for the thread, take a look at this graph which shows the % of trips (commutes?) made on public vs private transit. There's a huge variation in how auto-oriented European cities, assuming actual public transit use gives a good hint on how auto-oriented a city is.

What Really Matters for Increasing Transit Ridership: Rail Edition - Eric Jaffe - The Atlantic Cities

Ignore the commentary, just linking for the graph. It also ignores trips by bicycling or walking, which would overstate the auto-oriented ness of cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam. City density seems to correlate with transit use, but it's only one variable. Labels are in Spanish, which explains the city spellings.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
YOU are talking city planning here.

This thread is about the NATION of the UNITED STATES as compared to EUROPE.

Read the thread title.

Moreover, all the major US cities you are talking about have public transit systems. Cities develop public transit systems when the population density is sufficient to support a public transit system. Even before it can support a public transit system, and the system still requires subsidies. And that's why public transit is a LOCAL issue, not a NATIONAL issue.
The UNITED STATES as a country cannot build and support a public transit system, because the population density is not there to make it a NATIONAL need.
Counties don't build public transit. Cities do.

And public transit does not require subsidies if they don't have to compete with subsidized highways. Basically all transit in the US was private up until we started subsidizing highways in the 1940s. Over seas most transit is still privately run. Stock in Hong Kong's subway system is particularly profitable right now.

Also, you are comparing a continent to a country. Just thought you should be aware.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:37 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Take a look at the largest cities in the world in 1900:

Top 10 Cities of the Year 1900

Assuming it's correct, Philadelphia and Manchester were roughly the same size. And Philadelphia was probably denser than Manchester, though not London but that isn't surprising given the size difference. Note no southern European cities made the list, not even in the top 25 if the list was correct:

Map - Largest Cities in 1900

Boston was bigger than Madrid or Rome back in 1900. Manchester was the only European non-capital in the top 10, while the US had three cities that made the list, none of which were capitals.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
FYI the Northeast corridor does have about 50,000,000 people in 50,000 square miles from Boston to DC. It seems like it should be able to support high speed rail, and maybe California too.
Nobody's debating whether the Northeast Corridor should have high speed rail because it technically already has high speed rail. The point of that density exercise was to convey a sense of how dense some of these countries are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Elsewhere I suspect 70-120mph rail with reliable service would probably be more appropriate.
I don't think rail will ever be big in the South (and most of the U.S.). That's simply not realistic. The few urbanists who dream about high speed rail service between Atlanta and Jacksonville will be excited about it, but most people will simply drive it. Rail works well on the East Coast because you don't need a car once you arrive in South Station or Penn Station. That's not the case when you arrive in Downtown Charlotte or Birmingham.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Well, it is different (see above). Unless you think that I'm wrong, I can't find similar density maps. Not hotlinking to these since they're not really on topic for the thread:

File:Maine population map.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

File:New York Population Map.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would like to see an equivalent map for European countries but I can't find one.
Here's an EU-wide one, not really precise but gives an idea (in ppl/km²). Tho such density maps don't tell if population is concentrated in cities/towns surrounded with wilderness or more scattered in numerous villages or isolated farmhouses:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ensity_map.jpg


Precise one for France:
http://www.cartesfrance.fr/cartes/ge...and-format.jpg
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozenn View Post
Here's an EU-wide one, not really precise but gives an idea (in ppl/km²). Tho such density maps don't tell if population is concentrated in cities/towns surrounded with wilderness or more scattered in numerous villages or isolated farmhouses:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ensity_map.jpg


Precise one for France:
http://www.cartesfrance.fr/cartes/ge...and-format.jpg
Le deuxieme ne marche pas.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Paris
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Damn. It was 5000x4800, probably got stuck somewhere down the transatlantic cable. Here's the smaller format (scroll down):
Carte de la densité de population 2009

Spain (ppl/km² too):
http://sitasilvi.files.wordpress.com...blacic3b3n.png
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozenn View Post
I assumed giving the link to the 10.4 million urban area would be sufficient. Anyway here it is, first table, "superficie" line, 2845 km²:
Insee - Territoire - Zonage en aires urbaines 2010 : le centre se densifie, le priurbain s'tend

The 2010 numbers are higher but calculated over the same area as in 2008. The physical extension of urban areas is calculated about once a decade by the INSEE. Last one was 2008 (nei's numbers). Before that, 1999.
OK, that's helpful for being able to do the math - now we have a reliable number for Paris. But we still have no idea what area that encompasses and we have no idea what the actual population of the NYC urban area that was presented earlier is.


Quote:
What I wanted to say is that comparing a whole urban area to the densest parts of another one isn't logical to me. That's like me comparing Paris + the adjacent departments with the whole Madrid urban area. Madrid is denser and has far fewer houses than Paris, but its urban area (around 6 million) is less dense than Paris' 6-million equivalent.
But the point isn't to compare the land areas of one metro that's a good deal larger than another. The point is to compare how densely people live on that land because, I assume, we're trying to determine whether or not density has an effect on how often people use cars.


Quote:
Oops, forgot to mention Hudson, the numbers I used are yours, so NYC + Nassau and Hudson counties. Since there isn't an objective definition of what a dense core is, it can be whatever we want it to be: Manhattan vs the area inside the périphérique beltway or NYC+Hudson+Nassau vs 75+92+93+94 postcodes or something else... The only important thing is to be consitent. The area with 10.4 million inhabitants you used represents roughly the same population percentage of its urban area as Paris and the adjacent departments. It is therefore a valid comparison to me. And that certain percentage is denser in Paris than in New York.
Sure, so for comparison, let's assume the posted numbers of 18 million and 10 million for the urban areas. The NYC metro population is 55% larger than Paris so we would compare the first 2.2 million of Paris to the first 3.4 million of NYC (Manhattan + adjacent areas of B'klyn) and you get roughly the same density - perhaps a slight edge to NYC.

Now you can compare the 1.5 million of Hauts-de-Seine to the next 2.3 million people in the balance of Brooklyn & parts of Queens. Again, roughly similar.

You can compare Seine-Saint-Denis to the Bronx and the balance of the Queens population with a decisive advantage to NY.

Then compare Val-de-Marne to Staten Island and adjacent areas of Hudson, Bergen and Essex Counties. Slight edge to Val-de-Marne.

Quote:
But it isn't the case. Where New York has leafy, sprawling suburbs, Paris has fields. One can't discount the huge, very low density suburbs of LI, CT and NJ just because New York is a bigger city than Paris.
It absolutely is the case that Paris has been rapidly suburbanizing for two decades. Paris has lost people and jobs to the suburbs and all of the metro area growth in Paris has been in its suburbs.

It's not as if one steps out of the city of Paris and into farm fields. It fades to this -
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@48.8...gCsg37xq2A!2e0

Add another 500,000 people to the Paris metro in that style of housing and see what happens to the metro density.

These low density suburban areas of Paris are few in number relative to the population of the region but they drag the Paris average down disproportionately. The same is true in the NYC metro. One doesn't get to ignore the fact that NYC is much larger and thus has more of these low density areas dragging down the metro average.
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