U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-20-2014, 05:39 PM
 
12,326 posts, read 15,263,773 times
Reputation: 8130

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You know, I was a kid in the 60s, became a young adult by the end of that decade, and I don't know anyone, not one person, who lived like that.
Really? I know many who did that. Still know a few who do, maybe even longer miles, but the mpg is higher.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-20-2014, 06:09 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,965,850 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Really????


Really????


Sorry for the apoplexy. It might be helpful to read my other posts on the matter first -

Quote:
The UNITED STATES is nowhere as dense as EUROPE. That is what the article is comparing. The United States and Europe.

So you try to shift the discussion to NYC as representing the UNITED STATES.

And then argue that since there are some cities in the country of the UNITED STATES that are dense, that the country of the UNITED STATES should pursue the same policies as the countries of EUROPE.
Just because an opinion is in print doesn't mean we should accept the premise at face value.

So . . . no, I'm not trying to use NYC as a stand-in for the US. The comparison has been between the largest city in the US and the largest city in continental Europe. If one is to compare two cities at all then there's nothing inherently unfair about that comparison.


Quote:
Once again, Public Transit becomes a national issue when national density reaches a certain point. Until that point is reached, public transit is a local issue or a regional issue. European countries are more densely populated than the United States, and their urban populations represent enough of the countries' total populations to make transit a national issue. The United States has not reached that point, and is unlikely to do so in the immediate future.
Yeah, sorry dude, "Public Transit" is not a national issue. No one takes a city bus or light rail from Barcelona to Madrid or NYC to Boston. They fly or they take a fast train. National governments might fund local transit but with the exception of an EIS it remains very much a local issue nearly everywhere. Having made both trips before I can tell you that there are a lot more people between NYC and Boston than between Barcelona and Valencia.

High speed rail doesn't connect "countries" it connects cities and is a good alternative to air travel for trips of 400 miles or less. How dense Iowa or Montana are is wholly irrelevant to whether or not high speed rail is a good fit for connecting Philadelphia and Washington, DC or Philadelphia and Pittsburgh or LA and San Francisco or Chicago and Detroit.

The population of the Northeast Megalopolis is around 50 million people at a density of 930ppm - that's a larger population than the entirety of Spain and almost 4x as dense. It's 3x as dense as France and only slightly less dense than the Netherlands.

The US does have some amazing, wide open spaces but the fact remains that around 70% of Americans live in 11 megapolitan regions where high speed rail, or something close to it, would be perfectly viable if it existed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 06:41 PM
 
1,110 posts, read 915,369 times
Reputation: 1206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Counties don't build public transit. Cities do.

And public transit does not require subsidies if they don't have to compete with subsidized highways. Basically all transit in the US was private up until we started subsidizing highways in the 1940s. Over seas most transit is still privately run. Stock in Hong Kong's subway system is particularly profitable right now.

Also, you are comparing a continent to a country. Just thought you should be aware.
To be fair, the title of thread is " 9 reasons why the USA ended up so much more car dependent than Europe." So as long as he/she is comparing the US to Europe, then he is within the bounds defined by the OP. Whether or not that is a fair comparison is a different question.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 07:07 PM
 
10,638 posts, read 7,570,289 times
Reputation: 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian View Post
To be fair, the title of thread is " 9 reasons why the USA ended up so much more car dependent than Europe." So as long as he/she is comparing the US to Europe, then he is within the bounds defined by the OP. Whether or not that is a fair comparison is a different question.
Correct.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 08:12 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,965,850 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't think rail will ever be big in the South (and most of the U.S.). That's simply not realistic. The few urbanists who dream about high speed rail service between Atlanta and Jacksonville will be excited about it, but most people will simply drive it. Rail works well on the East Coast because you don't need a car once you arrive in South Station or Penn Station. That's not the case when you arrive in Downtown Charlotte or Birmingham.
A business traveler from Charlotte to Atlanta is going to do the same thing a business traveler arriving at DC Union Station does - they're going to walk outside to the taxi rank.

A college kid going home to Charlotte from Atlanta is going to do the same thing as a kid going from UPenn to New Haven - they're going to get picked up by mom & dad.

Everyone else can do the same thing they do when the land at an airport - rent a car. The basement of 30th St. Station is full of rental cars. All the major companies are represented there. Zipcar has a whole row of spaces just outside the door and the entire station is ringed with taxis.

The Charlotte to Atlanta corridor or Charlotte to Richmond corridor doesn't need to be full on HSR to be successful. The second alternative - the "Hybrid High Performance" with speeds up to 130mph is going to be 40% faster than driving and still competitive with flying.

A list of busy rail corridors with daily ridership/route length/average number of miles between stations/average speed/# of trains per day

Northeast Regional - 22,171 riders/664mi/19mps/53MPHh/18tpd

Acela - 8,918 riders/456mi/32mps/70mph/20tpd

Keystone (Harrisburg - NYC) 3,995/195mi/10mps/51mph/26tpd

^all of these trains share a lot of important stops. It should also be noted that 15-20 minute layovers in Philadelphia or NY Penn have a significant negative impact on average speeds.

Pacific Surfliner (San Diego - San Luis Obispo) - 8,758/350mi/13mps/42mph/22tpd

Capitol Corridor (San Jose - Auburn, CA) 4,533/168mi/10mps/52mph/30tpd

Empire (NYC - Buffalo) 3,917/460mi/31mps/62mph/+30tpd

Rounding it out are the:

Cascades (Eugene - Vancouver)

Hiawatha (Chicago - Milwaukee)

Lincoln (Chicago - St. Louis)

Any of these could be viable sort-of-HSR routes. Some routes saw up to 9% growth last year. A few short routes (Hiawatha for instance) lost 2% and that's on the routes where Megabus is killing them with hourly departures.

It's not that the travel demand isn't there. People want speed, comfort and frequent departures. Reliability is also a big problem in the midwest. These train routes don't need to top out at 220mph to be successful. They don't even need the average speeds of Acela - the 62mph average of the Empire Corridor is more than enough. Fix the bottlenecks, fix the ancient tracks and buy some more/better rolling stock and people will ride it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 08:33 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,180,376 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
OK, that's helpful for being able to do the math - now we have a reliable number for Paris. But we still have no idea what area that encompasses and we have no idea what the actual population of the NYC urban area that was presented earlier is.
I presented the boundaries, not sure what you're looking for. I got the population numbers from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_urban_areas

which comes from the us census:

http://www.census.gov/geo/reference/...ural-2010.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 08:55 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,965,850 times
Reputation: 1954
VRE from Alexandria to DC - If you watch the Part I video from 32:00 you get a good sense of just how neglected the infrastructure is - there's no flying junction so the train has to sit and wait for a full two minutes for an Amtrak train to pass in the opposite direction.


On-board VRE P336-05 from Alexandria to Washington (Part 2) - YouTube

A much better comparison to the RER, metro north new haven line. If this sort of stuff proves anything it's that we don't hate trees and that rail lines often followed the path of least resistance.

Metro-North New Haven Line (Part 3) - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 08:58 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,965,850 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I presented the boundaries, not sure what you're looking for. I got the population numbers from wikipedia:

List of United States urban areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which comes from the us census:

2010 Urban and Rural Classification - Geography - U.S. Census Bureau

You presented the boundaries you were using for the NYC urban area, which I appreciate, but you gave an incorrect number for the population so the density can't be correct.

The numbers you gave for Paris appear to be solid but I never saw a map of the urban area that those numbers are supposed to cover (or more specifically, which suburbs they exclude).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 09:08 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,180,376 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
You presented the boundaries you were using for the NYC urban area, which I appreciate, but you gave an incorrect number for the population so the density can't be correct.
The population number is correct, it's from the census bureau.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2014, 09:18 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,965,850 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The population number is correct, it's from the census bureau.
It's not correct. You gave us the population of the MSA not the population of the urban area in the map you presented.

You gave the population in the shaded area on that map as 18.3 million but the land area you presented should only have around 17 million people. I don't know what the exact number I just know that it's not 18.3 million that's why I've been asking what the correct number is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top