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Old 02-20-2014, 09:47 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
It's not correct. You gave us the population of the MSA not the population of the urban area in the map you presented.

You gave the population in the shaded area on that map as 18.3 million but the land area you presented should only have around 17 million people. I don't know what the exact number I just know that it's not 18.3 million that's why I've been asking what the correct number is.
The correct number is 18.3 million, I gave the urban area population. It's from the census, I gave a link.

18351295 is the number listed. Do a find for "New York"

http://www2.census.gov/geo/ua/ua_list_all.txt

the MSA population is 19,567,410 [using 2010 census numbers for both]
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Counties don't build public transit. Cities do.

And public transit does not require subsidies if they don't have to compete with subsidized highways. Basically all transit in the US was private up until we started subsidizing highways in the 1940s. Over seas most transit is still privately run. Stock in Hong Kong's subway system is particularly profitable right now.

Also, you are comparing a continent to a country. Just thought you should be aware.
Actually, I'm not the one comparing a continent to a country. The OP's article is the one comparing a continent to a country. Just thought you should be aware.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:37 AM
 
Location: NYC
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Face it, cities and towns that are designed around cars won't scale. And they are at the mercy of fuel prices and weather. The messy Atlanta Georgia 2" snow commute was the perfect example. They have no alternatives.

Here in NYC/NJ, if I was stuck at work even if I drove to work. I can park it in garage and walk to mass transit and get home.

Towns that often depends on driving have the least productive workers.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:43 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Well one comparison that might relevant to highway spending is NYC vs Paris. NYC spent very little extending its rail system past the 1930s but plenty of highways. The 1930s was a transition, Queens Blvd to a very arterial road with a subway underneath. But otherwise, the newer bridges were built without rail and many of the new highways (parkways) can't be used by buses (low clearance, though the legend is preventing bus access was done on purpose by Robert Moses).

Paris put lots of money into its rail system postwar: the RER in the 60s, for example. And the link I should earlier in the thread has Paris' transit vs car ratio is 60:40 while NYC's is 30:70 [metro-wide]. Of course, transit is mostly impractical for the outer suburbs of NYC other than rail into the center city.
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Old 02-21-2014, 10:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Well one comparison that might relevant to highway spending is NYC vs Paris. NYC spent very little extending its rail system past the 1930s but plenty of highways. The 1930s was a transition, Queens Blvd to a very arterial road with a subway underneath. But otherwise, the newer bridges were built without rail and many of the new highways (parkways) can't be used by buses (low clearance, though the legend is preventing bus access was done on purpose by Robert Moses).

Paris put lots of money into its rail system postwar: the RER in the 60s, for example. And the link I should earlier in the thread has Paris' transit vs car ratio is 60:40 while NYC's is 30:70 [metro-wide]. Of course, transit is mostly impractical for the outer suburbs of NYC other than rail into the center city.
What exactly is the point of this comparison?

Both cities have highways and well-developed public transit systems. The highways don't just serve the cities in question, they tie the cities into a much larger transportation system. The subways, buses, and even taxis are dedicated to the cities. The reason they have such well-developed public transit systems is because both cities have high population densities. Why is inner city rail in Paris versus NYC an issue at all?
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:16 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
What exactly is the point of this comparison?

Both cities have highways and well-developed public transit systems. The highways don't just serve the cities in question, they tie the cities into a much larger transportation system. The subways, buses, and even taxis are dedicated to the cities. The reason they have such well-developed public transit systems is because both cities have high population densities. Why is inner city rail in Paris versus NYC an issue at all?
The point was that Paris spent more on a local rail in the postwar years, while NYC, very little. Both cities uses highways a lot for truck freight.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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I disagree with my response being deleted. Government subsidies are one of the 9 points listed in the article. I think it appropriate to show that transportation subsidies in the US were not common or large until the 1940s-1960s.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,101 posts, read 16,159,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I disagree with my response being deleted. Government subsidies are one of the 9 points listed in the article. I think it appropriate to show that transportation subsidies in the US were not common or large until the 1940s-1960s.
As large or as common, but they were already common.

SF Muni was founded in 1909 and began service in 1912. Most of the streets in San Francisco had long been paved by 1940. Seattle bought out the cash-strapped streetcar monopoly in 1919. Despite bailouts from the general fund and large fare hikes, the city was forced to begin completely shutting down the street cars within 10 years of acquiring them. But yes, that was a gradually process. But by 1920 it was already very common for there to be subsidized public transit since the streetcar operators were already beginning to go bankrupt by then.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The point was that Paris spent more on a local rail in the postwar years, while NYC, very little. Both cities uses highways a lot for truck freight.
In the process of doing research, I ran across this. The pictures were so beautiful, and so sad, too, that I thought others on this thread my find them interesting. I'm not posting this as part of the debate, just for everyone's enjoyment. Happy Friday!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...iddxWQbk1XDNaA
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:15 PM
 
40,198 posts, read 24,449,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The point was that Paris spent more on a local rail in the postwar years, while NYC, very little. Both cities uses highways a lot for truck freight.
Some of the things I'm reading, suggest that it wasn't just Paris spending money on the inner-city rail, but instead it was France. Suggesting that the nation of France saw an interest in developing rail traffic in and around Paris. Why? Maybe because Paris represents roughly 20% of France's population, so more of the French population benefits from public transit in and around Paris. More than, say, the American population benefiting from public transit in and around NYC
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