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Old 02-19-2014, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,580,362 times
Reputation: 7830

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaleyRocks View Post
Lol so your solution is to force people to,live in a place that has changed and they no longer enjoy? Welcome to freedom American style?

We moved 200+ miles away. Left our jobs. Will never return to the city. My nearest neighbor is .5 a mile away.

We were already unhappy with the overcrowding, the change in lifestyle, the rush rush rush. Once safety became a concern we were done. Why live somewhere that has changed into something you did not choose and you do not like? How do you fix homes disappearing for large apartment complexes, farms disappearing for stores and parking lots? You can't demand that 100s or 1000s of people leave so things can go back the way you prefer. Instead you have to find the place you like and move there. And yes once you no longer like the new place, due to changes either external or internal reasons, you move again. If my neighbors decided to become a factory farm I would move. Likewise when I retire I will move.

There's nothing wrong with people wanting to live in a place where they are comfortable.
You moved out of that metro, not to someplace within that metro. Americans do that all the time, no one is saying we shouldn't be able to do that.
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,091 posts, read 16,121,723 times
Reputation: 12684
Reading the definition of domestic migration may prove helpful to you, urban.
Quote:
Some Portland-Vancouver counties have large numbers of people moving to the county from within the United States (“domestic migration”), while some counties have large numbers of people settling in the county after relocating from outside the USA (“international migration”). Multnomah County lost population due to domestic migration—people moving from Multnomah to other counties—while it gained international population. Washington County has large numbers of international migrants, while most of the people moving into Clackamas County were moving from somewhere in the USA. Table 9 in the appendix and Figure 8 summarize the migration dynamics in the seven-county region from 2000 to 2009.[7]
And yes, it was an error that I corrected. And then you even put that part in bold which is why I told you to go refer back to my correction. Hence why I said:

Correction, it was for domestic migration that had the super majority settling outside the UGB.
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,580,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Domestic migration means someone emigrating from somewhere in the United States as opposed to emigrating from outside the United States. That's what it's always meant. People moving from California to Portland, for example, moved overwhelmingly outside the UGB.
Then I misread what you wrote.

I don't see why that matters, all of the Portland metro received domestic migration and migration in general. The 80% doesn't mean that 80% of the people that moved to the Portland metro domestically moved to Clark County in Washington.
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,580,362 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Reading the definition of domestic migration may prove helpful to you, urban.


And yes, it was an error that I corrected. And then you even put that part in bold which is why I told you to go refer back to my correction. Hence why I said:

Correction, it was for domestic migration that had the super majority settling outside the UGB.
Reading that post doesn't surprise me, the people that have been priced out of Portland have migrated towards Vancouver. That isn't a negative thing for Portland by the way.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,091 posts, read 16,121,723 times
Reputation: 12684
No, it means they moved to somewhere outside of the UGB but within Portland Metro, which is what I said. There's other areas. Some ended up in, say, Scappoose which is outside Portland's UGB, inside Portland Metro area, located in Columbia county. The largest single county was obviously Clark. That doesn't somehow mean there aren't other areas within the Portland metro that are outside of Portland's UGB that people moved to in addition to Clark County.

http://urizen-geography.nsm.du.edu/~...B_Portland.pdf

More data.

Note the drop in transportation use and increased auto dependence even within the UGB during the 1980 to 2000 time frame. Note the ever decreasing share of total housing built by year within the UGB as more and more is built outside the UGB with each successive year since implementation.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,091 posts, read 16,121,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Reading that post doesn't surprise me, the people that have been priced out of Portland have migrated towards Vancouver. That isn't a negative thing for Portland by the way.
Although it is interesting how one can get driven from a lower income area like Portland to a higher income area like Clark County.

Clark County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Portland (city) QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

But yes, I completely agree. Having sprawl to act as a relieve valve helps. Having someplace that is close and outside restrictive growth boundaries to develop helps. Both are good for Portland. It does not, however, demonstrate that people have been priced out of Portland. They would not be included in "domestic migration." Only people from outside the PDX area would. Unless you meant they were priced out of moving to Portland and chose one to live in one of its suburbs outside the UGB, which you could well have meant due to the vagaries of English.

Last edited by Malloric; 02-19-2014 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,580,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
No, it means they moved to somewhere outside of the UGB but within Portland Metro, which is what I said. There's other areas. Some ended up in, say, Scappoose which is outside Portland's UGB, inside Portland Metro area, located in Columbia county. The largest single county was obviously Clark. That doesn't somehow mean there aren't other areas within the Portland metro that are outside of Portland's UGB that people moved to in addition to Clark County.

http://urizen-geography.nsm.du.edu/~...B_Portland.pdf

More data.

Note the drop in transportation use and increased auto dependence even within the UGB during the 1980 to 2000 time frame. Note the ever decreasing share of total housing built by year within the UGB as more and more is built outside the UGB with each successive year since implementation.
The link you are using is outdated, it is interesting information, but it is also about 14 years old. Lots have changed in Portland in 14 years.

Also, people who are moving to Vancouver aren't moving there because there isn't an UGB, they are moving there because the cost of housing is cheaper and their aren't state taxes (which doesn't matter if they work in Oregon.) The cost of housing is cheaper in Vancouver and Clark County because it isn't Portland which is a much more attractive location to move to. Plus Vancouver has had a lot of new developments over the years which is attractive to people looking for a suburban lifestyle, but don't want to move all the way over to Hillsboro. It is much easier crossing the river than it is crossing the West Hills, especially if you work close to 205, or even better if you work in Vancouver. I don't blame people for wanting to move up there that are looking for that kind of lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Although it is interesting how one can get driven from a lower income area like Portland to a higher income area like Clark County.

Clark County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Portland (city) QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

But yes, I completely agree. Having sprawl to act as a relieve valve helps. Having someplace that is close and outside restrictive growth boundaries to develop helps. Both are good for Portland. It does not, however, demonstrate that people have been priced out of Portland. They would not be included in "domestic migration." Only people from outside the PDX area would. Unless you meant they were priced out of moving to Portland and chose one to live in one of its suburbs outside the UGB, which you could well have meant due to the vagaries of English.
Another thing you are missing about Clark County is that they too have an Urban Growth Boundary technically, though not as tight as it is in Oregon.

http://www.clark.wa.gov/planning/com...9Amend-UGA.pdf

So the entire metro, including the Washington side does have some form of growth boundary. When I said "priced out" I was referring to people who have moved out of areas like North Portland and Inner Northeast Portland where the cost of housing has jumped up much higher than what it use to be for the people who use to live there. Portland is a growing and changing city.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,091 posts, read 16,121,723 times
Reputation: 12684
Well, if you have more recent data than 2008, by all means, ante up.

In either case, a shift now after 30 years of a continuing trend would just further prove the ineffectiveness in doing nothing except driving people outside of the UGB. The UGB has been constant for 40 years. What hasn't is economic factors and personal preference.

Quote:
So the entire metro, including the Washington side does have some form of growth boundary. When I said "priced out" I was referring to people who have moved out of areas like North Portland and Inner Northeast Portland where the cost of housing has jumped up much higher than what it use to be for the people who use to live there. Portland is a growing and changing city.
But that's the point. Someone who was priced out of anywhere in PDX to Vancouver, WA, would not be included in a domestic migration statistic. Only people coming from outside the PDX area are. For people coming to PDX from inside the US, most choose to outside the UGB. For people coming international, most prefer the city.

No idea about the number of people being priced out of Portland, however. That's an entirely separate category that isn't included in domestic migration. Since they aren't coming from outside the PDX area they aren't considered in that number.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:35 PM
 
9,522 posts, read 14,869,898 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
That tends to be what happens with suburbanites, they keep moving further and further out to get away from the problems rather than dealing with the issues. This is why I support Urban Growth Boundaries, you can only go so far from the city center before you have to deal with the problems at hand which in the end make for stronger communities.
I'll remember this one next time someone claims no one is trying to force people into the cities.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,580,362 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Well, if you have more recent data than 2008, by all means, ante up.

In either case, a shift now after 30 years of a continuing trend would just further prove the ineffectiveness in doing nothing except driving people outside of the UGB. The UGB has been constant for 40 years. What hasn't is economic factors and personal preference.


But that's the point. Someone who was priced out of anywhere in PDX to Vancouver, WA, would not be included in a domestic migration statistic. Only people coming from outside the PDX area are. For people coming to PDX from inside the US, most choose to outside the UGB. For people coming international, most prefer the city.

No idea about the number of people being priced out of Portland, however. That's an entirely separate category that isn't included in domestic migration. Since they aren't coming from outside the PDX area they aren't considered in that number.
Clark County has its own UGB, so they are still moving to within that boundary.
http://www.clark.wa.gov/planning/com...9Amend-UGA.pdf

Vancouver and Clark County have a lot of room still to build within that boundary. There is nothing wrong with having these boundaries because they prevent metros from stretching beyond their means.

Also, most people aren't choosing to live in Washington over Oregon. The numbers you posted showed that both sides of the metro were receiving large numbers of population growth. Which makes sense because the Portland metro is growing rapidly and keeping in pace with a number of attractive cities in the US.
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