U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-26-2014, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,708,837 times
Reputation: 7831

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyxius View Post
If a pedestrian has a don't walk signal or no crosswalk is available, then they shouldn't be in the streets.
In heavy pedestrian areas it doesn't always work that way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-26-2014, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,781,839 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Seems like you've made a good case for cul-de-sacs and more disconnected residential streets. Maybe that was the thought process behind them all along. My neighborhood is a combination of grid and cul-de-sacs. The kids that live in the culs often play outside on the street.
You only really want them to be disconnected to cars though. You still want them to be sufficiently connected, maybe with pedestrian only walkways, so that getting around by foot (or bike) isn't an issue. You also want enough roads that are straight and connected so that transit doesn't have to go on circuitous routes (as they do in many outer neighbourhoods of Kitchener).

The tricky thing about the street hierarchy is that you still have to have a few high volume roads, except maybe if the city is very dense with few people travelling by car, and those who do, only for a short distance. High volume roads can be a barrier between neighbourhoods depending on how they designed. You can have lower speed high volume boulevards. For higher speed traffic, the solution would usually be more expensive, maybe something like Autoroute Decarie in Montreal.
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Boulev...12.84,,0,-0.95

Or Allen Road in Toronto.
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Allen+...45.26,,0,-3.62

Decarie is trenched and has relatively frequent crossings, Allen Road a bit less frequent. They're still a barrier but not as much as a typical highway.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2014, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,781,839 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
In heavy pedestrian areas it doesn't always work that way.
Especially if the roadway is narrow. No reason not to cross wherever you want on a street like this.
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Allen+...,262.85,,0,8.3
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2014, 10:09 PM
 
9,018 posts, read 8,197,728 times
Reputation: 19600
Quote:
Especially if the roadway is narrow. No reason not to cross wherever you want on a street like this.
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Allen+...,262.85,,0,8.3
And when the people just cross anywhere they want to, more people get killed and injured.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2014, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,781,839 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtrader View Post
And when the people just cross anywhere they want to, more people get killed and injured.
Across a 6 lane 40mph arterial, yes. Across a single lane of very slow cautiously moving traffic, no.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2014, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,160 posts, read 103,094,225 times
Reputation: 33211
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Across a 6 lane 40mph arterial, yes. Across a single lane of very slow cautiously moving traffic, no.
I beg to differ. It has to be VERY "slow cautiously moving traffic" for that to be the case. Those woonerfs have speed limits of 5-12 mph, and 12 seems fast to me, to avoid accidents totally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2014, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,708,837 times
Reputation: 7831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I beg to differ. It has to be VERY "slow cautiously moving traffic" for that to be the case. Those woonerfs have speed limits of 5-12 mph, and 12 seems fast to me, to avoid accidents totally.
It would be much easier to stop a car going 12 mph while watching out for pedestrians on a small street. You can never avoid accidents totally, all it takes is someone taking their eyes off the road at the wrong moment, but the chance of an accident is much lower on a slow moving street.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2014, 11:42 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,293,352 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I beg to differ. It has to be VERY "slow cautiously moving traffic" for that to be the case. Those woonerfs have speed limits of 5-12 mph, and 12 seems fast to me, to avoid accidents totally.
Everything has a bit of risk in it, so it's impossible to avoid accidents totally. Crossing the street at signalized intersections has a risk, too.

The quoted post was referring to crossing the street away from an intersection not walking in the middle of the street. I think most people will cross a residential street mid block, unless the visibilty is low? Would you avoid walking across the street here?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Linde...2,57.6,,0,6.51

or this somewhat busier urban street?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=7th+S...16.68,,0,-1.22

I've walked in the middle of my street at times, car traffic is probably going much more over 20 mph at max, maybe 15-20 mph (it's a short street and kinda narrow). Unless a driver isn't looking at all at the road in front of him getting hit isn't that high. I move out of the way if I can see a car coming, more for the purpose of not blocking traffic than any safety fears. I'd find an intersection at a busy street, especially with fast moving cars, more worrisome.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2014, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,160 posts, read 103,094,225 times
Reputation: 33211
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Everything has a bit of risk in it, so it's impossible to avoid accidents totally. Crossing the street at signalized intersections has a risk, too.

The quoted post was referring to crossing the street away from an intersection not walking in the middle of the street. I think most people will cross a residential street mid block, unless the visibilty is low? Would you avoid walking across the street here?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Linde...2,57.6,,0,6.51

or this somewhat busier urban street?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=7th+S...16.68,,0,-1.22

I've walked in the middle of my street at times, car traffic is probably going much more over 20 mph at max, maybe 15-20 mph (it's a short street and kinda narrow). Unless a driver isn't looking at all at the road in front of him getting hit isn't that high. I move out of the way if I can see a car coming, more for the purpose of not blocking traffic than any safety fears. I'd find an intersection at a busy street, especially with fast moving cars, more worrisome.
That's right. And if you kill a kid, you'll spend the rest of your life in therapy. Probably even if you kill a Boomer, like me, you'll live with a lot of regret. I was thinking about this issue as I drove to work this morning. For a shared street to work, everyone has to know and operate by the same rules, which are different than the rules of the road. Different people have right of way, etc. One person not knowing/following the rules can gum up the whole system. This system is too risky.

Yes, I cross the street in my residential 'hood in mid-block. I don't even try to do that in downtown Louisville, a very busy area with a 25 mph speed limit, and an actual speed of probably much less, considering stop signs, having to stop while someone pulls out of a parking place, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2014, 01:20 PM
 
8,328 posts, read 14,625,148 times
Reputation: 4048
The kind of speeds we're talking about in a woonerf are about the same as the speeds one finds in a supermarket or mall parking lot. In parking lots, it is regular to expect people walking in the same lanes as automobiles. Drivers are aware of this and drive slowly to accommodate the ever-present pedestrians in a busy parking lot, often pushing carts full of merchandise. So there are plenty of examples of "shared street" areas even in the suburbs, there is no need to train drivers to expect behavior any different than they see every time they go to Costco.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top