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Old 02-27-2014, 01:25 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
The kind of speeds we're talking about in a woonerf are about the same as the speeds one finds in a supermarket or mall parking lot. In parking lots, it is regular to expect people walking in the same lanes as automobiles. Drivers are aware of this and drive slowly to accommodate the ever-present pedestrians in a busy parking lot, often pushing carts full of merchandise. So there are plenty of examples of "shared street" areas even in the suburbs, there is no need to train drivers to expect behavior any different than they see every time they go to Costco.
I guess you missed the thread about people freaking out over having to walk through a strip mall parking lot. If adults can't handle it, how can you expect unsupervised kids to do so.

The kids have to know how to play this game, too. And I disagree that the drivers don't need to be trained to expect behavior any different than when they go to Costco. At Costco, the kids are under their parents' supervision (b/c kids can't drive); at home they may be playing unsupervised. In a big parking lot, kids aren't going to go leaping out into the traffic lanes from the sidewalks, like they might at home.

The Strip Mall Problem

Last edited by nei; 02-28-2014 at 09:50 PM.. Reason: unnecessary
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,528,523 times
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People cross mid block in SoHo all the time, the key is you check to make sure no cars are coming when you step out onto the road. Makes no sense walking to the intersection if no one is coming on such a small street.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:41 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
People cross mid block in SoHo all the time, the key is you check to make sure no cars are coming when you step out onto the road. Makes no sense walking to the intersection if no one is coming on such a small street.
There is plenty of research showing that kids cannot estimate speed until about age 10.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:50 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,859,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
People cross mid block in SoHo all the time, the key is you check to make sure no cars are coming when you step out onto the road. Makes no sense walking to the intersection if no one is coming on such a small street.
The only streets that people cross midblock are small, one way, residential streets, anything other than that and it's getting risky.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:03 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,979,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
For a shared street to work, everyone has to know and operate by the same rules, which are different than the rules of the road. Different people have right of way, etc. One person not knowing/following the rules can gum up the whole system. This system is too risky.
Well for a shared street, if signed drivers yield to everyone else, that is the rule of the road. Not sure how it's any riskier than any other system.

This article claimed shared streets reduced collisions by 40%:

In Holland, one of the most common forms of transport is cycling and the Woonerf space has reduced road collisions by 40% in neighbourhoods where they have been implemented.

The Dutch 'Woonerf' - an example of safe road spaces - News - Activities - Yours
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:17 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Well for a shared street, if signed drivers yield to everyone else, that is the rule of the road. Not sure how it's any riskier than any other system.

This article claimed shared streets reduced collisions by 40%:

In Holland, one of the most common forms of transport is cycling and the Woonerf space has reduced road collisions by 40% in neighbourhoods where they have been implemented.

The Dutch 'Woonerf' - an example of safe road spaces - News - Activities - Yours
I'm glad you used the word "claimed" b/c they showed no documentation of same. I did find this in the article:

In Holland, the woonerf is place where pedestrians and cyclists have legal priority over motorists.

So, it's not really "shared".
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:22 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm glad you used the word "claimed" b/c they showed no documentation of same. I did find this in the article:

In Holland, the woonerf is place where pedestrians and cyclists have legal priority over motorists.

So, it's not really "shared".
It's shared in the same sense as both are allowed on the street.

Yes, I noticed the lack of documentation, but it was the quickest I could find. There's a limit to how much research I'm willing to do at the moment, or in general for most thread topics.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:31 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
The only streets that people cross midblock are small, one way, residential streets, anything other than that and it's getting risky.
Urbanlife mentioned a downtown street in the post you replied to. And also, why not here?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=North...10.61,,0,10.85

Traffic looks heavy, but sometimes it's light. I've seen people cross midblock on this commercial street:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Larkf...343.34,,0,6.94

Or in NYC, downtown in many places. SoHo as urbanlife mentioned:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=E+12t...,12.21,,0,2.69

and many more:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=E+12t...286.19,,0,7.64

Main St in my town has a bunch of crosswalks where drivers are supposed to yield, traffic is slow enough it doesn't create a hazard and you can see if a car isn't going to slow down, but they almost always do.

Last edited by nei; 02-27-2014 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,762,451 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm glad you used the word "claimed" b/c they showed no documentation of same. I did find this in the article:

In Holland, the woonerf is place where pedestrians and cyclists have legal priority over motorists.

So, it's not really "shared".
It's shared as in drivers can go there.

If you're going to have kids possibly darting out into traffic, wouldn't you want drivers to be going as cautiously as possible? You have

Status quo: Drivers drive with the assumption that kids will be responsible and not unexpectedly run into the road after a ball.*

Woonerf: Drivers have to make sure they are watching out for kids behaving unpredictably. That means if you see any kids playing outside, whether it's in front yards, at the side of the street or in the middle, you keep an eye on them as you're driving, and go slowly enough that you will have time to react. That can include coming to a full stop once you get to a certain distance if they haven't moved out of the way.

If young children aren't able to judge speed and therefore determine what is a safe distance from a moving car, that's why in a woonerf it would be the driver's responsibility to make sure the kids are a safe distance from them. And kids can still be taught to move to the side if there's a car coming.

*I'm not even sure this is even the status quo. If you take driving lessons here, you're taught to look for children playing and acting unexpectedly in residential areas. Most people around here slow down if they see children playing near the street.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:50 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,979,923 times
Reputation: 14805
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post

*I'm not even sure this is even the status quo. If you take driving lessons here, you're taught to look for children playing and acting unexpectedly in residential areas. Most people around here slow down if they see children playing near the street.
The difference would be in a woonerf, or maybe on other streets in the Netherlands, legally the driver would be considered at fault automatically if a kid darts into the road. Here, the usual would be label it an accident where the driver would be at fault (legally).
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