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Old 02-27-2014, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,646 posts, read 3,863,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
The only streets that people cross midblock are small, one way, residential streets, anything other than that and it's getting risky.
Small 2 way residential streets too, and even certain commercial streets.

http://goo.gl/maps/J89oU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I beg to differ. It has to be VERY "slow cautiously moving traffic" for that to be the case. Those woonerfs have speed limits of 5-12 mph, and 12 seems fast to me, to avoid accidents totally.
In this case it is VERY slow though. If you look at the street I linked, there's very little room to manoeuvre as a driver. It's full of unpredictable stuff everywhere, people unloading stuff from delivery trucks, lots of bicyclists, lots of pedestrian often crossing all over the place. Look around in, street view and you'll see just how true this is. Traffic does usually move at woonerf speeds, I'd say 5-10mph is pretty typical, basically barely faster than walking speed. I definitely think it's safe to cross if you look, and even safe to walk in the middle of the street because that's not unpredictable, drivers will see you walking in the middle of the street as they're approaching and wait for you to move out of the way.

BTW I think some woonerf's or variations of the concept have pedestrian only areas at the edge of the street, and then shared space in the middle.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,050 posts, read 30,328,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
There is plenty of research showing that kids cannot estimate speed until about age 10.
I am confused, what in my comment had to do with kids? I didn't even know we were talking about kids, I must have missed something.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,990 posts, read 27,196,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
There is plenty of research showing that kids cannot estimate speed until about age 10.
Then how are those kids in Little League able to hit change ups?
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:27 PM
Status: "Happy New Year!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
88,677 posts, read 105,056,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
It's shared as in drivers can go there.

If you're going to have kids possibly darting out into traffic, wouldn't you want drivers to be going as cautiously as possible? You have

Status quo: Drivers drive with the assumption that kids will be responsible and not unexpectedly run into the road after a ball.*

Woonerf: Drivers have to make sure they are watching out for kids behaving unpredictably. That means if you see any kids playing outside, whether it's in front yards, at the side of the street or in the middle, you keep an eye on them as you're driving, and go slowly enough that you will have time to react. That can include coming to a full stop once you get to a certain distance if they haven't moved out of the way.

If young children aren't able to judge speed and therefore determine what is a safe distance from a moving car, that's why in a woonerf it would be the driver's responsibility to make sure the kids are a safe distance from them. And kids can still be taught to move to the side if there's a car coming.

*I'm not even sure this is even the status quo. If you take driving lessons here, you're taught to look for children playing and acting unexpectedly in residential areas. Most people around here slow down if they see children playing near the street.
It's kind of hard to explain. Apparently in the woonerf, cars have to yield to everyone/everything else. I can see where it might be possible, given a group of rowdy older kids (say >8 or so), that a driver couldn't get out to the main road at all. The kids are playing say, baseball (though since this is the Netherlands, maybe more likely soccer), and they just don't want to yield to the driver. Tough luck, driver! The bold is the part where I said everyone has to know the rules of this game.

Of course people are taught in the US to watch for kids, pets, yada, yada and take evasive action if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Well for a shared street, if signed drivers yield to everyone else, that is the rule of the road. Not sure how it's any riskier than any other system.

This article claimed shared streets reduced collisions by 40%:

In Holland, one of the most common forms of transport is cycling and the Woonerf space has reduced road collisions by 40% in neighbourhoods where they have been implemented.

The Dutch 'Woonerf' - an example of safe road spaces - News - Activities - Yours
Well, there's two kinds of streets, woonerfs, and regular streets. Different rules for both as far as ROW could make it confusing. Apparently it works for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I am confused, what in my comment had to do with kids? I didn't even know we were talking about kids, I must have missed something.
Silly me, I thought kids playing in the streets was a major talking point of these woonerfs. In the link with the rules in different countries, Germany and one other country specifically mentioned children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Then how are those kids in Little League able to hit change ups?
That's measuring something different. I read an article about it once in Scientific American. I'll never find it in a million years (since it was about that many years ago that I read it), so you'll just have to trust me!
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:36 PM
 
5,314 posts, read 5,510,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
That's measuring something different. I read an article about it once in Scientific American. I'll never find it in a million years (since it was about that many years ago that I read it), so you'll just have to trust me!
No thanks. I'd like to see the data from a scientific journal with the proper references. Otherwise, it's not valid.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:37 PM
Status: "Happy New Year!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
88,677 posts, read 105,056,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
No thanks. I'd like to see the data from a scientific journal with the proper references. Otherwise, it's not valid.
You might be sorry about that.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,330 posts, read 30,584,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The difference would be in a woonerf, or maybe on other streets in the Netherlands, legally the driver would be considered at fault automatically if a kid darts into the road. Here, the usual would be label it an accident where the driver would be at fault (legally).
I believe that is the policy for all roads. The driver has to prove there was nothing they can do to prevent that incident. And the pedestrians / cyclists fatality rate is very low.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:49 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: NYC
46,051 posts, read 43,403,647 times
Reputation: 14884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

Silly me, I thought kids playing in the streets was a major talking point of these woonerfs. In the link with the rules in different countries, Germany and one other country specifically mentioned children.
Multiple conversations going on at once.

Urbanlife wasn't discussing woonerf, he was discussing crossing streets midblock and brought up SoHo (downtown Manhattan) as an example and not walking in them. This one does have people walking in them, though it may be partially closed to through traffic:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=nassa...217.21,,0,9.37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
It's kind of hard to explain. Apparently in the woonerf, cars have to yield to everyone/everything else. I can see where it might be possible, given a group of rowdy older kids (say >8 or so), that a driver couldn't get out to the main road at all. The kids are playing say, baseball (though since this is the Netherlands, maybe more likely soccer), and they just don't want to yield to the driver.
Sounds plausible, but no idea if that's actually a common problem, especially not having seen the streets in person or only have a brief couple day tourist visit to the Netherlands.

This situation is occasionally created by pedestrians crossing against the light in Manhattan. Road is clear, crowd of pedestrians crosses against the light. Later a car comes, can't go because pedestrians are still crossing. Correct driver tactic is to move very slowly towards to the pedestrians to convince them to move out of the way. Don't yield to someone who looks like he'll enter the crosswalk against the light, or you'll be blocked.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,050 posts, read 30,328,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
The only streets that people cross midblock are small, one way, residential streets, anything other than that and it's getting risky.
As long as you look first it isn't that risky crossing most two lane urban streets.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:02 PM
 
2,942 posts, read 3,956,963 times
Reputation: 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
No thanks. I'd like to see the data from a scientific journal with the proper references. Otherwise, it's not valid.
From what I know of child psychology(took a course in it once).Children say aged 2-7 are in the preoperational stage. They are very egocentric and have difficulty seeing things from other points of view. I have personally had problems with children who are playing getting out of "Their" way when I have driven through the an alley not my way. In other words the child did move out the way but only a little out the way and is still too close for safety. Also children don't instantly grow out of it(i.e. it isn't uncommon for an 8-9 year old to regress a bit. )
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