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Old 03-02-2014, 07:08 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
This didn't really happen.

Almost all of the neighborhoods that suffered riots in the 1960s - if they had much of a white population at all it had been in rapid decline for 20-25 years before any riots happened. In a lot of cases the only white presence left in a lot of those neighborhoods were a few holdover businesses and they were the targets of a lot of animosity during the riots (and this sort of thing was seen again in LA in 1992).

In some cases riots did hasten the demise but the white exodus was going to happen one way or the other.

White people were moving out of these neighborhoods because they were living in generally crowded conditions in housing that was obsolete and that, in most cases, they couldn't afford to modernize. The federal government was offering them a (nearly) free ticket to greener pastures and brand new houses in Staten Island, Northeast Philly, New Jersey, wherever.
Oh, c'mon! Nearly free ticket? Subsidized mortgages, yes, but nothing's free, especially from the govt.
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:28 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,955,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The people in that link "architects, stay-at-home moms, a lawyer, even two women who don't yet have children" are incredibly naive:
Again, I think it's the tendency to be highly dismissive of their efforts and their accomplishments. Naive is but one word people use.

My house is a few blocks from the school and I know most of those women through their other work in the community. Far from being naive their plan was actually very calculated. The small changes they made brought back 10x as much in parent involvement (there's no underestimating that) and community investment. People in the neighborhood took ownership of the school. It became "our school" instead of "that school" and despite crippling budget cuts the school is hanging on through the crisis.

I agree that it'll take 20 years but change is gradual and has to start somewhere. I also know that "all we have to do" was very tongue-in-cheek.
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:41 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
Again, I think it's the tendency to be highly dismissive of their efforts and their accomplishments. Naive is but one word people use.

My house is a few blocks from the school and I know most of those women through their other work in the community. Far from being naive their plan was actually very calculated. The small changes they made brought back 10x as much in parent involvement (there's no underestimating that) and community investment. People in the neighborhood took ownership of the school. It became "our school" instead of "that school" and despite crippling budget cuts the school is hanging on through the crisis.

I agree that it'll take 20 years but change is gradual and has to start somewhere. I also know that "all we have to do" was very tongue-in-cheek.
Having been involved with my school district for 25 years now, I can safely say they're naive. However, it's a start. One of the problems with schools is that many people lose interest when their own kids move on. That's really a problem in early childhood. If this is a K-8 school, the parents presumably will have their kids there for 9 years. During that time, they'll probably change their focus a bit. It is good that they're getting involved. The more people who see what is actually going on in the schools, and what it takes to make schools work, the better.
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:46 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,955,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, c'mon! Nearly free ticket? Subsidized mortgages, yes, but nothing's free, especially from the govt.
A 1% VA Loan on an $18,000 house in 1955? No closing costs.

You show up to settlement with $180 and never look back on your dingy apartment.

I'm not getting into the semantics of what "free" means but the law was changed in 1950 so that people could use a VA Loan to cover the whole cost of a mortgage and by 1956, Vets had used it to buy 6 million houses. At the average household size back then that's nearly 30 million people. And that was just the end of the WWII era program that was then extended to cover Korean War Vets.

In most cases there was no practical way to use those loans to buy an 80 year old house in the city.

So yeah, I'd say it's a pretty important factor.
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:47 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,955,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Having been involved with my school district for 25 years now, I can safely say they're naive.
But you don't know this school and you don't know those women so you can't safely say their naive.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:08 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
A 1% VA Loan on an $18,000 house in 1955? No closing costs.

You show up to settlement with $180 and never look back on your dingy apartment.

I'm not getting into the semantics of what "free" means but the law was changed in 1950 so that people could use a VA Loan to cover the whole cost of a mortgage and by 1956, Vets had used it to buy 6 million houses. At the average household size back then that's nearly 30 million people. And that was just the end of the WWII era program that was then extended to cover Korean War Vets.

In most cases there was no practical way to use those loans to buy an 80 year old house in the city.

So yeah, I'd say it's a pretty important factor.
"It’s a common misbelief that VA loans are only for financing houses. In fact, there are many other kinds of properties that can be financed using your home loan benefits. A VA-guaranteed loan can be used to finance the following:

Purchase of a house
Purchase of a townhome or row house
Purchase of a unit in a VA-approved condominium complex
Purchase of a unit in a multiplex
Finance the construction of a new home
Home upgrades, additions or major repairs
Energy efficient improvements
Refinance of an existing mortgage loan (VA or non-VA)
Interest rate reduction of an existing VA loan"


As you can see, there is nothing in this link about having to use them only for NEW homes, and indeed, I know a lot of Vietnam-era vets who bought existing homes with VA loans.

Of course, to get a loan the house has to pass inspection. Seeing what passes (and passed back in the 50s) the standards were not overly high.

And good grief! These people were veterans. I'm no flag-waver, but give them a little break.

https://www.ifreedomdirect.com/va-lo...an-eligibility


Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
But you don't know this school and you don't know those women so you can't safely say their naive.
You can argue that through time and eternity. You don't know them either, do you? You can go over to the ed forum and you will see that almost everyone knows just what to do to improve the schools, if only someone would ask them. I continue to say it's good they're involved. They'll get their eyes opened. Maybe it'll be a good school for their grandchildren.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:09 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Again, we're leaving the thread topic.
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Old 03-02-2014, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
2,056 posts, read 1,971,358 times
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This is a great thread, and I can see some extremely well thought out posts. Mine won't be as long, but I hope the point is clear.

Race will always divide this nation.

As a white guy struggling to stay in middle class, what I have witnessed in the last 20 years is that traditionally white collar jobs have replaced all the jobs lost. Many of these jobs now pay much less. In Birmingham, the new factories are bank service centers. The wages are low, and the lack of unions in these traditionally white collar jobs has meant some abuses by the employers. And who is "manning" these low level service center jobs? Largely, African Americans.

Lots of deeper things to look at, but Spike is right. But his methods are wrong. The victim mentality changes nothing. Exposing the issue and seeing what some can do to improve their situation is the right way.

I stand by my original point: race will always divide America.
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Old 03-02-2014, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,170 posts, read 29,669,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The people in that link "architects, stay-at-home moms, a lawyer, even two women who don't yet have children" are incredibly naive: "All they've got to do, they figure, is reshape curriculum and teaching, lower class size, and sell Jackson to a neighborhood highly skeptical of city public schools." (emphasis mine). Not only that, they expect to do this tiny little amount of work in two years or less: ""You can't gamble with your kids' education," acknowledged Jackie Gusic, a cochair of the committee. But by the time her 3-year-old son enters Jackson, Gusic figures, it won't be a gamble."

Two years? Try more like two decades!

More: "The moms have already gotten results. With Burnley's blessing, the moms and Jackson eighth graders planted a garden last weekend. They painted a map of the United States on the playground blacktop. They're overseeing the opening of the long-shuttered library, and Burnley said their opinions will carry weight as a committee picks Jackson's next principal.

The moms want to tackle the science lab next. They will hold a teachers' appreciation luncheon. They plan to put a mosaic on the front of the school. They want a language program for the school's Latino parents, and an antiracism program in social studies classes."

Planting gardens, painting mosaics and the like will not raise academic achievement. I do think it's good they got the library back open, and the science lab project may be beneficial, though this is an elementary school (maybe K-8?). It's good they're interested in the schools, something I've long advocated for on this board. They could use a little guidance, though. They are going to see just how hard it is to improve schools. Hopefully, they won't run out of energy before they actually accomplish something like higher academic accomplishments.
Much of educational achievement is dictated by parent involvement. A school's outcome won't shift overnight, but getting a critical mass of involved parents can help individual outcomes. Once a kid falls behind it I hard to catch up, but if you can keep, a kid from ever falling behind, outcomes are good.

2 years is short for the school on the whole but if the school is a better environment, your kid can benefit. The improvements won't show up in scores and rankings in the first years but that isn't the only measure of success.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:38 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Much of educational achievement is dictated by parent involvement. A school's outcome won't shift overnight, but getting a critical mass of involved parents can help individual outcomes. Once a kid falls behind it I hard to catch up, but if you can keep, a kid from ever falling behind, outcomes are good.

2 years is short for the school on the whole but if the school is a better environment, your kid can benefit. The improvements won't show up in scores and rankings in the first years but that isn't the only measure of success.
Agreed to a point! If your kid is doing well, it doesn't matter what the rest of the school is doing, again, to a point. This is more the case in elementary school that HS. You need to go to a HS that offers some higher-level courses, e.g. honors classes, AP classes, college prep, etc if you intend to go to college. Parental involvement, yeah, that's a biggie.
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