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Old 03-07-2014, 03:12 PM
 
2,816 posts, read 5,383,911 times
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Time to figure it out, yes. Time for the school to improve, maybe. Schools are highly bureaucratic and change very, very, very, s - l -o- w- l- y. Ten years may not be enough time.
Of course the real problem is funding and the whole school district concept, which generates great inequalities within the public school system.
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:10 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,985 posts, read 102,540,351 times
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Originally Posted by Perfect Stranger View Post
Of course the real problem is funding and the whole school district concept, which generates great inequalities within the public school system.
Of course you are unfamiliar with the concept of school funding equalization which is done in many states. You are also apparently unaware that cities generally have a bigger per-capital tax base and higher per-pupil expenditures than suburban districts (in general).

Saving America's School Infrastructure - Google Books
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Of course you are unfamiliar with the concept of school funding equalization which is done in many states. You are also apparently unaware that cities generally have a bigger per-capital tax base and higher per-pupil expenditures than suburban districts (in general).
And still they fail. Funding is an excuse.
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Old 03-07-2014, 08:59 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,635,011 times
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Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
We is pretty collective and mostly related to policy. Policy made it hard to get loans to fix up urban properties. Policy decided to use eminent domain to bike freeways and destroy black communities. Policy decided to put up the factories in the neighborhoods were people did not have political power so they'd have to deal with the poor air quality and quality of life issues. Policy decided to start a war in drugs that is completely useless. This isn't about "blaming" white people. Our society made a series of decisions that killed our urban areas.

I had a really good chat with my dad about the race riots in the late 60s, and how he was feeling at the time. He was in the army and get lucky and was stationed in England. All the while, he and his peers were feeling more and more uneasy about the ideas that people like him could go to war and die for the country but couldn't get basic civil rights at home. His dad came back home from ww2 and couldn't get a job at the factory or anywhere in his town, even though he had a masters degree at the time when only 10-15% of his peers finished high school. He didn't want to come home from war and face the same fate as his father after serving his country, and his peers felt the same way. If civil rights didn't happen he was prepared to do something drastic. Now my dad was lucky, he came back went back to finish college and went on to get his MBA and a good amount of opportunities were open to him when he finished in the mid 70s. But the first year after he came back was really tense.

It wasn't that he "hated white people." He hated that society thought and treated him like he was worthless, but suitable to die for the cause.



Because while $80k is good nationally, Montgomery County is still a heck of a lot richer. There's no high-end retail (unless you count Whole Foods) in my town with average income is $87K; it's all in neighboring towns with average incomes of $133K and $228K.

The same thing happens in Oakland. Oakland has a ton of people with over $100k incomes and no very little retail. We did get a whole foods a few years ago. It is packed, and in an area with an average income of about. $60-65k which isn't a whole lot on Bay Area standards, but the store is one of the busiest in the region. And draws a completely different crowd than your typical whole foods, income levels are way more diverse at my store. Food obsession crosses class lines here.
Interesting read. It seems like whenever something like this is brought up, people tend to confuse institutional and systemic issues with individualized prejudice. It's because of the historical and present reasons that I think it has a lot more to do with race(and in the US, it's interrelated with class) than someone like Banjan believes. Overall, I agree with Lee's commentary since it sometimes is a case of people moving in and hoping that the current residents will get priced out while not wanting to learn about the local history and culture.


This is a pretty interesting read about some of the social dynamics of gentrification when we get past people who just want to live in a neighhorhood full of cupcake shops and dogparks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
That's not necessarily the case; you can have places like Tribeca (in Manhattan) and some places in Philadelphia where the current gentry are wealthy enough to afford private schools, or can get their kids into selective public schools. Or other places which remain popular with relatively well-off people without children.


Yes, but don't be surprised if the "something" is the "special" schools expand, or the gentry send their kids further away.
I disagree. A place like Manhattan is an atypical example. Gentrification is a generational thing that is popular with Gen Y's who are in that zone for having children and empty nester Boomers who are not. While really wealthy ones will be able to send their children to private schools no matter the city, I think it's more likely that when those Y's feel like settling down, they'll either get lucky with a "good" school or suck it up and leave for the suburbs. I put "good" in quotation because making a school "good" in the case of gentrification, means pushing out existing residents. Parents often judge schools based off their standardized test scores. Surprise surprise, student achievement as it is currently measured, is highly correlated with income(one of the few things where there is even a direct relationship). So we should be asking ourselves, what are really saying when a school becomes "good" due to gentrification. NW Washington DC is a good example of that. All we're really doing is allowing the snake to continue eating its tail.
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:13 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,953,386 times
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Originally Posted by Octa View Post
Overall, I agree with Lee's commentary since it sometimes is a case of people moving in and hoping that the current residents will get priced out while not wanting to learn about the local history and culture.
I don't disagree that some people do that (hope the current residents leave) because I've come across people who maybe wouldn't say something like that out loud but definitely talk down about their new neighbors. But the phenomenon of neighborhood change isn't being driven by homeowners.

People can always point to anecdotes about some rental building that went condo and everyone "got kicked out" but the data doesn't back that up. In the case of Ft. Greene the black population had been in slow decline for decades and only ticked up once property values rose. You can see the exact same pattern in Graduate Hospital in Philly - except that Grad Hospital is actually historically african-american and the population loss was a bit more extreme over the decades. What you see is a black neighborhood where home ownership was relatively high then you see the number of black homeowners decline and the number of white renters go up.

The black pioneers in Ft. Greene (of the 50s and 60s) were middle class and were moving there for better/bigger housing . . . they were also the first to start leaving in the 70s and 80s for still greener pastures. You see the same black, middle class flight in Grad Hospital around the same time. In the neighborhood just south of it - Point Breeze - you see a large shift toward black middle and working class starting in the 50s (in what was a mostly Italian neighborhood) then by the late 60s a mass-exodus begins and, I can't show this with the data yet, but at least anecdotally it's because the black middle class starting moving to much larger and newer houses in West and Southwest Philly (and the numbers in those neighborhoods do bear that out). And when you look at those neighborhoods in West and Southwest 20 years later you see the same happening with people leaving West/Southwest for Delaware County.

Quote:
I disagree. A place like Manhattan is an atypical example. Gentrification is a generational thing that is popular with Gen Y's who are in that zone for having children and empty nester Boomers who are not. While really wealthy ones will be able to send their children to private schools no matter the city, I think it's more likely that when those Y's feel like settling down, they'll either get lucky with a "good" school or suck it up and leave for the suburbs. I put "good" in quotation because making a school "good" in the case of gentrification, means pushing out existing residents. Parents often judge schools based off their standardized test scores. Surprise surprise, student achievement as it is currently measured, is highly correlated with income(one of the few things where there is even a direct relationship). So we should be asking ourselves, what are really saying when a school becomes "good" due to gentrification. NW Washington DC is a good example of that. All we're really doing is allowing the snake to continue eating its tail.
The momentum for the changes that are taking place now started before Gen Y was relevant . . . one can see it as far back as the 70s in Manhattan and really taking hold in the 80s and 90s in parts of Philadelphia, DC, SF. Cities are attractive to such a large subset of Gen Y'ers because they're different than they were 25 years ago and because they grew up with a completely different media attitude towards cities.

From what I've seen the parents who leave the city for "the schools" aren't moving to McMansions in the exurbs - they're moving to places that are 'city-lite'. The railroad/streetcar suburbs just beyond the reach of the city school district.
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Old 03-09-2014, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
From what I've seen the parents who leave the city for "the schools" aren't moving to McMansions in the exurbs - they're moving to places that are 'city-lite'. The railroad/streetcar suburbs just beyond the reach of the city school district.
Take a drive up US-422 and out US-202 and you might consider otherwise. While some are moving to the actual "city-lite" places (Phoenixville, West Chester), plenty more are moving to the McMansions around such places. And I don't think Pottstown and Coatesville proper are really attracting a lot of people, though there's plenty of development around them.
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:18 PM
 
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They're leaving for "the whiteness."
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Old 03-10-2014, 07:10 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,953,386 times
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Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Take a drive up US-422 and out US-202 and you might consider otherwise. While some are moving to the actual "city-lite" places (Phoenixville, West Chester), plenty more are moving to the McMansions around such places. And I don't think Pottstown and Coatesville proper are really attracting a lot of people, though there's plenty of development around them.
I know people who live in new developments out there, around Collegeville and Doylestown, and they didn't move there from the city nor did any of their neighbors. The people moving out there are coming from other parts of Montgomery and Bucks and work around KOP or Great Valley.

With the exception of some place with a strong draw (New Hope) few people with strong work and social connections to the city are moving to the exurbs.

Pottstown and Coatesville aren't attracting a lot of people. I don't see Coatesville happening anytime soon but Pottstown certainly has potential as places just downstream - Royersford and Phoenixville - have become bigger draws.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,250 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octa View Post
Interesting read. It seems like whenever something like this is brought up, people tend to confuse institutional and systemic issues with individualized prejudice. It's because of the historical and present reasons that I think it has a lot more to do with race(and in the US, it's interrelated with class) than someone like Banjan believes. Overall, I agree with Lee's commentary since it sometimes is a case of people moving in and hoping that the current residents will get priced out while not wanting to learn about the local history and culture.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I've written about 246 posts on this topic already. How on earth did you conclude that I don't really believe that "historical reasons" really matter that much?
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:40 AM
 
28,905 posts, read 46,712,118 times
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Big mistake: Taking any celebrity seriously on any subject outside of their own arena. Just because someone has the genetic gift of good vocal chords or can mimic emotions in front of a camera doesn't mean squat in any other arena of life. Spike Lee's opinion counts about as much as the checkout girl at my grocery store. Or the average CD poster for that matter.

Personally, the entire gentrification debate is damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't. People use the term "white flight" a lot to disparage the diaspora from the inner city, conveniently forgetting that a lot of non-whites made the pilgrimage themselves. Then when the next generation moves back into the city and revitalizes what had been approaching wasteland status, they get criticized again. It's not really criticism grounded in substance, but rather criticism of People Who Aren't Like Us. It's a bigotry of a sort.

To hell with nitwit critics like Spike Lee. Anything that injects new vitality into the inner city is a good thing.
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