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Old 03-09-2014, 08:47 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,995 posts, read 102,568,112 times
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Lots of angry urbanites here this morning. Must be the time change! I'm going to take a few comments at a time. Let's start with this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
In general, the people who aren't picky about walkability don't seem to walk much for transportation and generally drive. I think they'd notice more if they walked much more.
While I do not, now, walk much for transportation, anyone who says I don't know what I'm talking about is lying. Yes, I'm that angry at this flurry of posts about me. I walk almost every morning through my neighborhood and to another one for exercise. I do notice my surroundings. I don't find road cuts insurmountable to my walking. It's hilarious to me that people who want drivers, bikers, pedestrians, skate boarders to all mingle on the roads find it freaking impossible to walk down a road with a curb cut!

Furthermore, I have walked a lot in my lifetime. I'm one of the few on here, I'd bet, who actually walked to school, not once, but twice a day as we came home for lunch in elementary school. I also walked a lot for other transportation purposes, as my family was among the last of the WW II generation, so it seems, to get a second car. We walked to the corner store (which wasn't just around the corner), we walked to the bus stop, we walked to a big county park a mile or so away, and so forth. When I was in college, I had no car and walked everywhere I went. As a very young nurse, my spouse and I lived w/o a car for a while. I've walked when I owned a car as well. So put that above and below in your pipes and smoke it, which is the most polite thing I can think of to say that will make it through the TOS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
This is exactly the right. It's crystal clear who does not walk, ride transit, or bike for transportation in this forum (and really rely on it). Anybody who has lived in an urban area and relied on these forms for transportation woils understand these concepts. What's surprising, is that there are so many people who are interested in this forum that fit that criteria.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,329,932 times
Reputation: 3562
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
The urban planning forum is filled with anti-car posts. There are plenty of posts on closing streets to cars, making streets smaller to increase congestion for cars, increasing gas taxes with the goal of decreasing car traffic, eliminating parking lots under the pre-text of "urban fabric" in order to make areas less accessible to cars. Not sure that the responses are "angry" just that they see through the chaff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
You realize that the very posters who are the ones who state what you listed will come on and deny ever having said or proposed any of it.

Then, when you go back and find the quotes, you'll be accused of taking them out of context.
No, the problem is that there are some pro-car posters who are completely incapable of understanding that limiting parking or making a bike boulevard in a dense urban environment (that accounts for about 2% of the developed land in the US, and is for the people who actually live in that area) does not mean that there's a war on cars. Quite the opposite. The purpose is to allow for alternative modes of transportation and blend them with the HIGHLY dominant use of cars.

You two clearly love driving and cars, and that's cool. You will be able to do it till the day you die without even the slightest concern. However, people who prefer other modes or cannot afford a car will continue to want accommodation where it makes sense.

To tie this back to the thread at hand, I live in an urban neighborhood (although not high density) and I would not and never will support a highway being paved through my community. Luckily, paving highways through urban neighborhoods is a thing of the past; and it should be. If you choose to live out further and commute into the city, that's your choice.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,329,932 times
Reputation: 3562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Lots of angry urbanites here this morning. Must be the time change! I'm going to take a few comments at a time. Let's start with this one:



While I do not, now, walk much for transportation, anyone who says I don't know what I'm talking about is lying. Yes, I'm that angry at this flurry of posts about me. I walk almost every morning through my neighborhood and to another one for exercise. I do notice my surroundings. I don't find road cuts insurmountable to my walking. It's hilarious to me that people who want drivers, bikers, pedestrians, skate boarders to all mingle on the roads find it freaking impossible to walk down a road with a curb cut!

Furthermore, I have walked a lot in my lifetime. I'm one of the few on here, I'd bet, who actually walked to school, not once, but twice a day as we came home for lunch in elementary school. I also walked a lot for other transportation purposes, as my family was among the last of the WW II generation, so it seems, to get a second car. We walked to the corner store (which wasn't just around the corner), we walked to the bus stop, we walked to a big county park a mile or so away, and so forth. When I was in college, I had no car and walked everywhere I went. As a very young nurse, my spouse and I lived w/o a car for a while. I've walked when I owned a car as well. So put that above and below in your pipes and smoke it, which is the most polite thing I can think of to say that will make it through the TOS!
No one's angry here that I know of. Also, no one has singled you out as far as I can see.

Here's the thing. If you have lived without a car, and you claim that this is walkable:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2090...rp1HXfQjLA!2e0

Then you've never lived in a place like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ri...6c9ab4b5eabfa9

When some are arguing that highways are not obstructive to local neighborhoods that are walkable, they've never had to deal with traversing this on a day-to-day basis:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ro...001ffc4125e61e

Or this late at night, where there are people out in surrounding neighborhoods and then you have to pass through this by yourself:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pi...f915a15aa21b34

Curb cuts, highways, large frontal parking lots and low density commercial development (e.g. big box stores) do not make an environment walkable. Can you walk there? Of course. The difference is that it's difficult, more dangerous, less enjoyable, and not something you'd want to do for a long time.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
6,373 posts, read 5,999,108 times
Reputation: 3557
I'm not sure how this forum turned into one about walk-ability, but I will say this. Outside of dense, high-rise environments where the entrances onto the highway are easily crossed it is a lot easier said than done.

I love where I'm at, but they face some rather unique challenges when it comes to walk-ability. Pedestrians have to cross entirely too many lanes of traffic in most areas. Other areas have highways, but since these highways are at street level, pedestrians cannot cross them. It is like they never heard of underpasses in this area.

Chesapeake is the worst example, by far. Forget about crossing any of their bridges, unless you have a death wish. Virginia Beach is a little bit better. The only areas with a truly urban form and function are Norfolk and Newport News; great bridges, easy to cross a road if you need to, easy to walk around the city if you need to. But walking is deadly in Hampton Roads; truth to be told, driving is deadly as well (but that is for a different forum).

Now back in Akron, OH I can walk through the entire city on sidewalks from North to South or East to West. Might take like eight hours, but it can be done.

Municipalities with more public transportation options usually have a better infrastructure suited to walking. But not always. In Cleveland, OH, suburbs like Berea are very walkable. Most of metro Cleveland is walkable. Akron is a different case. Inner ring suburbs, like Cuyahoga Falls and Barberton, very walkable. Going out a ways, like Hudson, maybe not so much.

People expect low density suburbs to be walkable and that usually is not going to be the case. A suburb with no high rises, no mid rise apartments, you probably will not find sidewalks either.

Again, I have mixed feelings about expressway construction. I am not so sure it ever was that great of an idea. My real issue is that the automobile culture was never for the poor and working class. It was only for suburbanites that could actually afford to keep up with the expense of the automobile and those working poor willing to make the sacrifices it took to keep up with the reoccurring expenses but your working poor, hand to mouth individuals could never get ahead, and that is who public transportation is really for in most cities.

So what ends up happening is that you purchase an automobile because it makes it easier to get around and transport groceries, people, whatever but the car is frequently on the side of the road. We always kept a few cars around and would routinely go from one to the next, while the former is being repaired. And that only works if you have a yard, a garage and a driveway; if you live in an apartment building or park on the street that is not a viable option.

Ironically, people want to be able to go into the city at will but do not want the city coming out to suburbia. I can go in and out of the city, because I work there, but I don't want you coming out to my neighborhood because you have no business being there. I had to take a bus to the city limits, and then walk the rest of the way to school through a suburb that did not allow public transportation through that area. It was a private school with no arrangements for transportation. I did the same thing later on in life when I lived in the city, but again, took a bus with a limited route that could not get me close enough to the area where I worked. There weren't any sidewalks in this part of the suburb (though other areas within the suburb did have them).
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:19 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,349,202 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
... However, people who prefer other modes or cannot afford a car will continue to want accommodation where it makes sense.
Yeah, I know. You want buses and rails and stops close to where you live in the name of accommodation. But you probably live in a house with steps, multiple levels, narrow doorways, and tiny bathrooms. You expect the world to accommodate you but not vice versa. You expect to see lots of people but not hear any noise - and I guess you expect the rest of the world to pay for it all.

The "cannot afford a car" claim is largely without merit. It is cheaper to own a car and have independence than it is to try to live "in the city" (particularly anywhere "downtown").

Quote:
To tie this back to the thread at hand, I live in an urban neighborhood (although not high density) and I would not and never will support a highway being paved through my community. Luckily, paving highways through urban neighborhoods is a thing of the past; and it should be. If you choose to live out further and commute into the city, that's your choice.
Not sure that "paving highways through urban neighborhoods" is a "thing of the past".
Your vote is usually irrelevant in such matters. Happening all the time either with new roads or expansion of existing roads. In addition the rail promoters have to get land for the rails from somewhere. No doubt you wouldn't have a problem with eminent domain for sidewalks. I'd rather have a road instead of a sidewalk along with all the people, noise, trash, and pet poop. Based on land area you have described it sounds like the vast majority of the population also has no desire for dealing with attitudes of urbanites constantly "concerned" about whether the property near them is aesthetically pleasing to them.

Last edited by IC_deLight; 03-09-2014 at 11:14 AM..
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:34 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,987 posts, read 41,947,535 times
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Houses with multiple levels are something common in only in urban areas? Never heard homes with stairs being described as an unusual before
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,329,932 times
Reputation: 3562
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Yeah, I know. You want buses and rails and stops close to where you live in the name of accommodation. But you probably live in a house with steps, multiple levels, narrow doorways, and tiny bathrooms. You expect the world to accommodate you but not vice versa. You expect to see lots of people but not hear any noise - and I guess you expect the rest of the world to pay for it all.
No clue what you're talking about here. What my house looks like or how many levels it has is irrelevant. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by me expecting for the world to pay for it. Pay for what???

For the bold: How are you not accommodated? Are there not ample highways, parking and roads all over the US? It seems you want accommodation (through representation, paying taxes, etc.), but guess what? So do I! See, we're not so different after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Not sure that "paving highways through urban neighborhoods" is a "thing of the past".
The way it was done in the 50s and 60s it is, largely. New highways go in, but usually in newer cities and in places that are not well established or dense. Nothing close to like it was done in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Your vote is usually irrelevant in such matters.
Not true at all. Strong neighborhood associations can and have stopped or altered eminent domain. Associations in NYC, Philadelphia and many other places have stopped highway (and rail) construction on many occasions. And why should they not have a say?

Note: If you're going to go with the predictable "it's for the greater good", please show definitive evidence, including proper math equations and chemical compositions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Happening all the time either with new roads or expansion of existing roads. In addition the rail promoters have to get land for the rails from somewhere.
Sure, I have no problem with new roads or new rails where it makes sense. However, when they're going to cut through the center of established urban neighborhoods, your eminent domain may not do so well...that goes for both rail and roads. Take a look at the challenges of the red line in Baltimore; clearly it's not just a problem for highways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
No doubt you wouldn't have a problem with eminent domain for sidewalks.
I won't address this because I'm assuming you didn't mean to type it, but rather, accidentally slipped and slammed your head on the keyboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
I'd rather have a road instead of a sidewalk along with all the people, noise, trash, and pet poop. Based on land area you have described it sounds like the vast majority of the population also has no desire for dealing with attitudes of urbanites constantly "concerned" about whether the property near them is aesthetically pleasing to them.
LOL, well, at least diplomats and gentlemen like you can speak with such tremendous command of proper attitude.

Last edited by AJNEOA; 03-09-2014 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
6,373 posts, read 5,999,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Houses with multiple levels are something common in only in urban areas? Never heard homes with stairs being described as an unusual before


Whoever said that may have been referring to situations where entire houses are stacked up on top of each other; from the outside you'll see six levels but in reality it is actually two three story homes with separate entrances, vertically. You typically see this with town homes.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:05 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,349,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
No clue what you're talking about here. What my house looks like or how many levels it has is irrelevant. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by me expecting for the world to pay for it. Pay for what???
Not in a world where you expect all these "accommodations".

Quote:
Also, I suppose you expect to be accommodated with roads for where you live, right? See, we're not so different after all.
I pay for them, I expect to get them.

Quote:
Let me guess, your vote IS relevant on such matters? What happened with all that constitutional talk? Are we not equals?
Not typically subject to a vote, period.
Do you recall a ballot provision requesting "permission" to build such a road? Do you believe that your personal opinion is relevant?
At best the ballot provisions will be for bonds to support new construction.

Quote:
Sure, I have no problem with new roads or new rails where it makes sense. However, when they're going to cut through the center of established urban neighborhoods, your eminent domain may not do so well...that goes for both rail and roads. Take a look at the challenges of the red line in Baltimore; clearly it's not just a problem for highways.
There is no "entitlement" for the current embodiment of the subdivision to remain "as is" in perpetuity. Eminent domain can be financially costly. The only thing I recall about Baltimore is all the people wandering around asking for money whether at the airport or elsewhere. Also lot of public drunks and apparent homeless in the areas I saw. Not a model to extend to other areas.

With respect to the point about eminent domain for sidewalks you said:
Quote:
I won't address this because I'm assuming you didn't mean to type it, but rather, accidentally slipped and slammed your head on the keyboard.
How long have you been typing with your forehead? Not sure that sidewalks or "no highways through your neighborhood" will solve your issues. Your avoidance of the point doesn't help your argument.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:12 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,349,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Houses with multiple levels are something common in only in urban areas? Never heard homes with stairs being described as an unusual before
Multi-level vs multi-story. Often even in single story homes you will see multiple levels which creates access problems and fall hazards. What's going on outside urban areas isn't that relevant. After all this forum despises and attempts to differentiate "urban" areas from "suburban" areas. The point is that those promoting all these amenities and expectations in urban areas for walkability don't bring the same design standards into their own housing - which is far more important and individually controllable than these large, expensive public infrastructure issues.
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