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Old 03-05-2014, 09:09 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,860,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete. View Post
If you live in the country/mountains/secluded area, you may not identity with a neighborhood. I can understand that. However, there is nothing unusual about people that do identify with a neighborhood. What you're treating as some fringe behavior is actually extremely common and normal. People identify with their surroundings and take pride in it.

How do you feel about the use of eminent domain of property to build highways?
Happens all the time for rail(CTA bought some Property to possibly expand the RED line recently), Hospitals(Chicago's Medical district was created from an neighborhoods), universities(UIC gobbled Maxwell Street/Jew Town) as well as highways. An static city is an dead one.
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:54 PM
 
1,709 posts, read 1,675,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Happens all the time for rail(CTA bought some Property to possibly expand the RED line recently), Hospitals(Chicago's Medical district was created from an neighborhoods), universities(UIC gobbled Maxwell Street/Jew Town) as well as highways. An static city is an dead one.
First off, rail lines take up far less space than highways. A rail line is about the width of one automobile lane, and two lines can handle the capacity of 6-8 lanes. As for the other services, they provided benefits that weren't there before (education, healthcare, etc.) while highways are both an extension of a service that is already present (urban arterial roads) and an unnecessary supplementation of other services already available (mass transit).

Secondly, and far more importanly, if we just continue to "evolve" without giving any recognition to our heritage and history, then who are we? If we have no physical reminders of our past, then how long will it be until it is forgotten? And when it's forgotten, then who are we? How can we define ourselves as communities (be that families, parishes, subdivisions, neighborhoods, municipalities, cities, states, nations, and whatever agglomerations of people you can think of), and furthermore as individuals, if we erase all evidence of our past? Our history makes us who we are and gives us the means to "evolve". If we just keep moving forward in the name of progress, without looking back to see how we got here, then we will eventually be lost. So destroying structures, neighborhoods, communities, etc. for the construction of frivolous and unnecessary structures (like urban freeways) in the name of "progress" is wholly harmful to us. We can't always let our selfish desire for "convenience" and "comfort" get ahead of us or else we end up clinging to those and avoiding the struggles that build character and the history that defines it.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,533,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Happens all the time for rail(CTA bought some Property to possibly expand the RED line recently), Hospitals(Chicago's Medical district was created from an neighborhoods), universities(UIC gobbled Maxwell Street/Jew Town) as well as highways. An static city is an dead one.
The El consumes less land than the highways in the Chicago metro do.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:59 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,860,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
First off, rail lines take up far less space than highways. A rail line is about the width of one automobile lane, and two lines can handle the capacity of 6-8 lanes. As for the other services, they provided benefits that weren't there before (education, healthcare, etc.) while highways are both an extension of a service that is already present (urban arterial roads) and an unnecessary supplementation of other services already available (mass transit).

Secondly, and far more importanly, if we just continue to "evolve" without giving any recognition to our heritage and history, then who are we? If we have no physical reminders of our past, then how long will it be until it is forgotten? And when it's forgotten, then who are we? How can we define ourselves as communities (be that families, parishes, subdivisions, neighborhoods, municipalities, cities, states, nations, and whatever agglomerations of people you can think of), and furthermore as individuals, if we erase all evidence of our past? Our history makes us who we are and gives us the means to "evolve". If we just keep moving forward in the name of progress, without looking back to see how we got here, then we will eventually be lost. So destroying structures, neighborhoods, communities, etc. for the construction of frivolous and unnecessary structures (like urban freeways) in the name of "progress" is wholly harmful to us. We can't always let our selfish desire for "convenience" and "comfort" get ahead of us or else we end up clinging to those and avoiding the struggles that build character and the history that defines it.
Trust me, if you have ever been forced to use transit for any length of time, you will fall in love with the car and we can't save everything from the past. History is important but even Rome had to destroy some to build it's subway.

As for rail, existing housing is the reason why it is difficult to expand rail. There are buildings in the way and so you are forced to tear down the property or build expensive subways. The EL for instance didn't serve the southwest side of the City until a route became available via an rail road viaduct that was no longer needed in the 1990ies! The EL didn't go to 95th street because without building the expressway it was in there was no cheap route further south beyond 63rd likewise the route to O'Hare. So if we had not built the freeways then the EL(public transit) would be much less useful. In short the mass transit to the northwest side and the far south side of Chicago sucked before the highways.

As for the road, it's benefits were faster travel time both in/out and around Chicago by Car, EL and Bus. Those arterial roads still jam up with local traffic at rush hour so yes additional capacity was needed.

Last edited by chirack; 03-05-2014 at 11:10 PM..
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:22 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,860,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
The El consumes less land than the highways in the Chicago metro do.
The EL is located in 3 of those highways. Congress line was an replacement for an elevated destroyed by the expressway but O'Hare and Dan Ryan are not. Some trains actually run at street level causing traffic issues themselves(Brown, Pink, and Yellow lines). And poor lake street hasn't seen sunlight in over 100 years, needless to say that street doesn't have much in the way of people or residential buildings due to the train, it's noise and the perpetual dimness bellow.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,334,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Trust me, if you have ever been forced to use transit for any length of time, you will fall in love with the car and we can't save everything from the past
I see this as personal preference. I've had to rely on sub-par transit for years now, and I still personally prefer it; I'm anticipating a huge increase in service quality over the next year and I will be very happy. It's cheaper, less stressful, and I get to be outside and get some exercise. It's clear you just prefer driving...and that's cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
As for rail, existing housing is the reason why it is difficult to expand rail. There are buildings in the way and so you are forced to tear down the property or build expensive subways. The EL for instance didn't serve the southwest side of the City until a route became available via an rail road viaduct that was no longer needed in the 1990ies! The EL didn't go to 95th street because without building the expressway it was in there was no cheap route further south beyond 63rd likewise the route to O'Hare. So if we had not built the freeways then the EL(public transit) would be much less useful. In short the mass transit to the northwest side and the far south side of Chicago sucked before the highways.
While I've taken the line you're talking about, I don't have enough experience to speak to its history. However, it doesn't change the fact that highways and rail lines are two separate things, and it's a matter of scale. The amount of buildings that need to be ripped up in a dense urban area are more significant with highways. Also, my experience has been that in dense urban areas, rail is more useful and integrated with the local communities because it's a mode of transportation that increases QOL by adding more accessibility for the communities it passes through. Highways could be argued to be a benefit to some extent (local business access, access for going out of town, etc.), but less so in dense urban areas where cars don't dominate.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:50 AM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,195,305 times
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Someone that does not understand the concept of "community" will never understand the devastation of the loss of community. No point in arguing, for many people there is no community, there is only "ME".
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:55 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete. View Post
If you live in the country/mountains/secluded area, you may not identity with a neighborhood. I can understand that. However, there is nothing unusual about people that do identify with a neighborhood. What you're treating as some fringe behavior is actually extremely common and normal. People identify with their surroundings and take pride in it.
Narcissism is common but that doesn't mean I have to cater to narcissists.
The "pride" factor exhibited extends to a desire to control property belonging to other people in the name of "aesthetics" and that is offensive no matter where one lives.

Quote:
How do you feel about the use of eminent domain of property to build highways?
How I feel about it is irrelevant. The U.S. Constitution allows for it and requires just compensation depending on the level of taking. You don't get compensation for "loss of neighborhood". You get compensation based on the level of taking of your property.
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,334,259 times
Reputation: 3562
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
That's funny. "Community" is the euphemistic concept the self-absorbed use to avoid saying "me". It's the people touting "community" that are always trying to take from someone else or impose on someone else for personal benefit or ego in the name of "community". Quit hiding behind the mask of "community".
You mean like paving highways through "neighborhoods" for the benefit of getting downtown faster?

If there is no community, which in concept refers to social values amongst a group of people, then what does it mean to be individualistic? Perhaps we're all just running around being selfish...which then would include you. I suppose there are just mirrors everywhere and we're all the same person living for ourselves.

Now that that's established, let's build a highway through your living room since there would be no impact, because there's only me and I won't have to feel bad.

Last edited by AJNEOA; 03-06-2014 at 07:49 AM..
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:24 AM
 
358 posts, read 360,060 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Narcissism is common but that doesn't mean I have to cater to narcissists.
The "pride" factor exhibited extends to a desire to control property belonging to other people in the name of "aesthetics" and that is offensive no matter where one lives.
You can deny sociology and psychology all you want, but having a sense of community is real. It's not some deep desire to control others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
How I feel about it is irrelevant. The U.S. Constitution allows for it and requires just compensation depending on the level of taking. You don't get compensation for "loss of neighborhood". You get compensation based on the level of taking of your property.
Exactly, there is no compensation for loss of neighborhood, which is what we are discussing. It is most definitely a loss, whether or not you can make sense of that. Not everything is black or white.

You hold a lot of personal importance to land/property, so I just wanted to get your take on eminent domain.
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