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Old 03-06-2014, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,331,720 times
Reputation: 3562

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
You haven't established anything. Obviously you put mythical "community" over actual individuals. I recognize individual rights - not mythical "community" rights (the community right you refer to is distinguished from marital community rights). "Community" as you use it is not a person and isn't really even defined. Try naming "community" in your lawsuit and you'll find zero capacity or standing or harm.

Regarding taking my "living room", I suspect a roadway would need to take several other properties as well. Assuming the project is approved then i) after a condemnation/eminent domain proceeding at which the just value of the property taken is established and ii) after compensating all the owners in the path, you can proceed. I wouldn't expect to get enhanced value because of my neighbors' properties nor based upon the number of neighbors - so no there is no premium to be recognized for your "community".
Do you expect us to name specific people in our own communities in this thread in order to have a conversation about the impacts that highways have on groups of individuals in general? Every community is different, but there are also similarities between communities comprised of people with beliefs (religion, morals, etc.) and norms (how they live their lives, how they interact, etc.). In other words, every community has people who work, people who commute, people who eat, people who socialize, etc. These activities that take many forms are constants that allow us to have a discussion, and the differences between them are what make the conversation interesting and the problem complicated.

The method in which eminent domain works, which you've pointed out more than once in this thread, is not what this thread is about because it's a mechanical process (property valuation, compensation, etc.). The thread is searching to find what impacts there have been to communities and the social structure...with some focus on the built structure, because that commands some of norms that are established with how life is lived.

To give you specifics, I can tell you that the existing highway bordering my neighborhood has some impacts on the group of individuals that comprise my community. These are middle-class individuals that work a variety of jobs (white collar, blue collar, sole proprietor, manager of corp, etc.), walk to local amenities such as the market, restaurants, laudromat, CVS, etc, and like to sit on their porches. The highway that borders us doesn't have a fully bad impact, but it didn't cut through the center of our neighborhood. The impact it does have is it segregates us from another nice neighborhood and some local amenities...e.g. families like to walk to ballgames with their kids in the summer, and the highway makes it more difficult (and shady) to get there; people use their cars more because of this, and fewer people feel comfortable biking into downtown because of it. The good is that there is good highway access, making it easier to get places via car, and given that my neighborhood is somewhat car centric (by norm), that's a good thing.

Highways being built are done so with eminent domain legislation and policy, but nonetheless, it has impacts on the people who live there. Past communities, comprised of individuals that eat, socialize, move around, etc., just like the rest of us have been impacted badly, especially in dense urban areas. To argue that we're arguing via "arbitrary community" is just not true, because there are lots of examples of highway construction that have been built through communities similar to the ones each of us live in.
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:49 AM
 
1,709 posts, read 1,674,850 times
Reputation: 1838
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
There isn't a loss. Not a person. Not a "thing". No recognized loss.
Not everything can be measured or put into empirical data. Not everything is absolute, a figure or fact that can be pinpointed. Some things are just too abstract to be measured. One of these things is the interaction of humans with one another and their local environment (whether natural or man-made). Though you can't measure it, it's there and has a positive effect on the individuals that partake in it. When that interaction, that connection, is disrupted (usually physically; EG highway construction through a neighborhood), it can be-and often is-lost. And thus, its beneficial effects on the individuals involved are lost as well.
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,331,720 times
Reputation: 3562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete. View Post
Not everything is a math problem that can be solved.
And thank goodness. Life would be boring without the unique social aspects of life. Without community, would there even be art/music? Usually, artistic representation and interpretation of life is shared with at least one other person (and often times of community). I know that many dense urban environments are usually the most powerful artistic enclaves, because people have to share their lives with others around them more intimately. Running a highway through an environment like that would most certainly change that intimacy.

In other words, ONLY a collection of trees that share resources and each other can ever become a forest.
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:32 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,350,485 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
And thank goodness. Life would be boring without the unique social aspects of life. Without community, would there even be art/music? Usually, artistic representation and interpretation of life is shared with at least one other person (and often times of community). I know that many dense urban environments are usually the most powerful artistic enclaves, because people have to share their lives with others around them more intimately. Running a highway through an environment like that would most certainly change that intimacy.
..sounds like you are referring to intangible property - art, music.
These can be preserved, valued, sold, etc. They aren't destroyed by highways.
If you are talking about individual artists, there are always more venues.

It's always interesting that you believe something you have in one instant of time should be preserved forever. No doubt the people enjoying the open space where your homes now stand felt the same way. You're aren't experiencing "harm" you are experiencing life.

Quote:
In other words, ONLY a collection of trees that share resources and each other can ever become a forest.
A highway doesn't destroy a forest. Some might say it allows more people to enjoy the forest.
Others might say the forest destroyed the prairie that was there before it. Life is change, not static.

Promoting urbanism promotes the congestion which leads to the "problem" you complain of to begin with.
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:50 AM
 
2,498 posts, read 6,392,532 times
Reputation: 2257
Look at what I 84 & I 91 did to Hartford CT???
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:08 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,350,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBev View Post
Look at what I 84 & I 91 did to Hartford CT???
Provide a way to get out?
Provide better access?
Keep it on the map?
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,523,816 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
The EL is located in 3 of those highways. Congress line was an replacement for an elevated destroyed by the expressway but O'Hare and Dan Ryan are not. Some trains actually run at street level causing traffic issues themselves(Brown, Pink, and Yellow lines). And poor lake street hasn't seen sunlight in over 100 years, needless to say that street doesn't have much in the way of people or residential buildings due to the train, it's noise and the perpetual dimness bellow.
The El is tied to the highway in a number of areas because that is how they were able to get funding for it. Portland did that with their first light rail line, it required to make it a part of the highway budget, thus tied it to the highway. It was a bad way to fund rail projects, but at the time it was the only way to fund rail projects.

As for the trains running at street level, that is only a small portion at the tail end of the lines that should also be elevated, running trains at street level isn't the best idea.

But that doesn't change my point, the El consumes less land than the highways in the Chicago metro.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,523,816 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
My place is my home, not some arbitrary collection of streets or other buildings. I don't spend my time obsessing about how the rest of the world should be changed to fit my aesthetic preferences. Save your sorries for yourself, they aren't worth anything here.
Of course it isn't some arbitrary collection of streets, that is the point of your home being your home. It is something specific to you, and the neighborhood you live in is something that is specific to you, but it is often times pretty easy to identify what is a neighborhood because neighborhoods are usually built around the same time.

I have no idea why you keep dancing around this, there is nothing wrong with agreeing with other people from time to time, you don't have to disagree for the sake of disagreeing about everything.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:10 AM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,194,455 times
Reputation: 3351
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
That's funny. "Community" is the euphemistic concept the self-absorbed use to avoid saying "me". It's the people touting "community" that are always trying to take from someone else or impose on someone else for personal benefit or ego in the name of "community". Quit hiding behind the mask of "community".
Like I said, I have no need to argue with someone that does not understand the concept of community.
I understand that many people can not see beyond their own needs.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,067 posts, read 16,081,530 times
Reputation: 12641
For a counter point that has not been brought up, look at what the Interstate system did to all the small towns that are bypassed. The benefits far outweigh the costs, but the costs are most severe in very close proximity. It's no different than trains. Trains are obnoxiously loud up close as anyone who has ever lived near heavy rail knows. They really have to be underground which is insanely costly. The total cost of the U-LINK extension (mostly subway) in Seattle is in excess of $600 million per mile. Since it's light rail, which isn't that loud, it's questionable. But it's going through affluent neighborhoods so they're spending obscene amounts of money to do a subway rather than elevated. Where the poors live they just use elevated/at-grade since that's much cheaper.
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