U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-11-2014, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Creative class is concentrated in cities and represents around 40% of the workforce in many metro areas. In some like San Jose that number is approaching 50%. It isn't a narrow demographic in American society. It will soon be the majority in a few parts of the country. Almost all of the country already has more than 25% creative class.
I have something very particular in mind when I say "Creative Class." For example, I don't consider any part of Prince George's County, Maryland to be "Creative Class" though Richard Florida designates about two-thirds of it as such. When I refer to the "Creative Class," I'm really referring to the SWPL demographic that greatly overlaps with Florida's Creative Class. This is the demographic that's moving into cities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-11-2014, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,335,456 times
Reputation: 3562
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The people who visit and work in the city are already accustomed to using transit or paying for parking in the central city. Even in a sprawled out city like Atlanta, the parking isn't free. You have to pay something for it. The people who get most pissed off about parking are city residents. For example, in my old DC neighborhood, DDOT and WMATA eliminated some parking to make more room for the bus, and my neighbors went bezerk. The impact of parking is felt most strongly by the people living there who have to circle the block several times before finding a space. The person visiting a trendy area of a city can always pay for parking, but a resident trying to park near his or her house doesn't always have that option.
Yes, parking is an issue for people living in dense cities too, but I'd argue that they're more equipped to deal with it. In really dense cities, they'll forgo using a car (or at least car lite). There are lots and lots of cities in the US where a majority of commuters drive in...I mean, that's why highways are so packed in DC, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I definitely think so. I started a thread a long time ago asking why there are hardly any Republican-voting enclaves in central cities (outside of Hasidic Jewish communities in NYC). Go to Williamsburg, Columbia Heights, Haight-Ashbury, Cambridge, W. Mount Airy, Midtown Atlanta, etc. and the politics and tastes of the residents are largely the same.
Richard Florida's wide and blurry definition is questionable IMO. Creative class, as Malloric mentioned, is a HUGE demographic (some of which Florida's definition doesn't even make sense) and plenty live in suburbs.

As far as I can see, the "creative class" buys expensive vehicles and large suburban lots just as much as they live in cities. For example, in my neighborhood, I have a repairman living next door, a nurse living across the street, etc. Not really a white creative class enclave...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's not what I mean. I mean that they assume that something that's occurring within their demographic applies across the board.

And to be honest, we're dealing with a demographic that's coming from an entirely different perspective than much of America. Many (not all) of today's urbanists are white people who grew up in suburbs and have a certain resentment towards suburbs. There was a thread in this forum asking whether posters have lived in the suburbs before and it was pages and pages of venting about being "trapped" in safe neighborhoods without access to public transportation, etc. If that's where you're coming from, and you're surrounded by people who share that background, then I can see how you view the transition of young whites from suburbs to cities as something revolutionary.
I guess, but again, the "Creative Class" isn't full of only whites or kids who grew up in the suburbs (although they are the majority). And the number of people it accounts for is a huge chunk of the country. It's not like we're talking about 5% of the population is boasting about how they're revolutionizing cities unknowingly.

Example: My wife is black and is very educated and grew up in a poor urban neighborhood; she loved her neighborhood, despite not being well off and will only live rural or city. I'm white and grew up in a rural area with a one parent factory-worker income; then I moved to the suburbs and hated it (I still love rural life though).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,071 posts, read 16,094,154 times
Reputation: 12647
Well, Florida is the one who coined the term "Creative Class," so that's kind of confusing. The SWPL demographic isn't really creative. A lot of them are economic losers working in Starbucks, receptionist at a non-profit, unsuccessful freelance writers or graphics designers, etc, who aren't really doing much creatively except maybe designing top ten slide shows.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:06 PM
 
Location: sumter
8,571 posts, read 5,388,522 times
Reputation: 6603
Many people just love the comfort of their own private vehicles. They don't have to deal with strangers, eat breakfast to go, blast the music, bluetooth, the option to stop anywhere along the way, and leave from home on their own time instead of the bus or train schedule. I know a few of these things can cause the driver to be distracted but that's what people do and I have seen way worst.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Yes, parking is an issue for people living in dense cities too, but I'd argue that they're more equipped to deal with it. In really dense cities, they'll forgo using a car (or at least car lite). There are lots and lots of cities in the US where a majority of commuters drive in...I mean, that's why highways are so packed in DC, right?
There's even more traffic on the Washington Beltway, which is not in the city. So traffic woes have little to nothing to do with the people living in DC. Your contention is that urban dwellers are doing things that suburbanites complain about, but I fail to see how traffic is one of those things that the former is "doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Richard Florida's wide and blurry definition is questionable IMO. Creative class, as Malloric mentioned, is a HUGE demographic (some of which Florida's definition doesn't even make sense) and plenty live in suburbs.
And that's why I said that "Creative Class" was not sufficiently precise. Forget I even said that. My point was that urbanists fit a certain profile. There are not many working-class whites (or Blacks or Hispanics) among their ranks. They are often upper middle class with some bleeding into the middle class. And their politics and tastes are virtually identical across the board. It doesn't matter whether you're in the Haight or in Adams-Morgan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I guess, but again, the "Creative Class" isn't full of only whites or kids who grew up in the suburbs (although they are the majority). And the number of people it accounts for is a huge chunk of the country. It's not like we're talking about 5% of the population is boasting about how they're revolutionizing cities unknowingly.
I'm really referring to urbanists (who strongly overlap with SWPLs who also strongly overlap with "Creatives"). They are indeed a small minority. They just don't see it that way because they don't see too far beyond that bubble.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Well, Florida is the one who coined the term "Creative Class," so that's kind of confusing.
My apologies. I was looking for something more neutral than "upper middle class white people" (with a smattering of Honorary Asians).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
The SWPL demographic isn't really creative. A lot of them are economic losers working in Starbucks, receptionist at a non-profit, unsuccessful freelance writers or graphics designers, etc, who aren't really doing much creatively except maybe designing top ten slide shows.
I agree that many are not creative. But my point was that this demographic dominates the American urban landscape (along with poor racial minorities).

SWPL/Upper Middle Class/Trends towards central cities/walkable inner ring burbs


Scene In: Dupont Circle - YouTube

Prole/Working Class/Trends towards suburbs/McMansions if possible


White vs Black Construction Company Big Fight - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,071 posts, read 16,094,154 times
Reputation: 12647
Well, I use the terms urbanistas more than urbanists. Urbanist includes a lot of people that aren't necessarily hipsterish. Say South Beach, Marina, or Noe. None are really SWPLish. Noe is mostly urbanist soccer moms, Marina is 30-40 somethings in Land Rovers, South Beach is techies, corporate drone hives, and night clubs. I know what you mean, but that isn't all or even most of urban areas. Say NYC UES/UWS. Definitely urbanist, often very liberal politically, not known for being SPWL-esque. Bed-Stuy is more SPWL mixed with the working-class.

If you're talking about the Venn diagram that is all of the above of urbanist, SWPL, and Florida's Creative Class, yes, that's a small group. But they're a vocal one with money. As a whole, the SWPL urbanistas aren't really that influential as a group. Their station in society just isn't very important, and while egalitarianism is great and all, the proles just don't effect that much change generally.

Last edited by Malloric; 03-11-2014 at 02:50 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Well, I use the terms urbanistas more than urbanists. Urbanist includes a lot of people that aren't necessarily hipsterish. Say South Beach, Marina, or Noe. None are really SWPLish. Noe is mostly urbanist soccer moms, Marina is 30-40 somethings in Land Rovers, South Beach is techies, corporate drone hives, and night clubs. I know what you mean, but that isn't all or even most of urban areas. Say NYC UES/UWS. Definitely urbanist, often very liberal politically, not known for being SPWL-esque. Bed-Stuy is more SPWL mixed with the working-class.
Haha. See, I consider hipsters to be a subset of SWPLs. I have a checklist I usually run through to assess SWPLdom. A person need not have all of these to be a SWPL, but will likely have most of them.

NPR (check)
Obama voter (2008 Primary) (check)
Whole Foods/TJ shopper (check)
NYT/New Yorker/Economist subscription (check)
Patagonia/Helly Hansen/Canada Goose (check)
Degree from prestigious liberal arts school (automatic)
Microbrews (check)
Indie films (check)
Fair trade coffee (check)
Farmer's market (check)
Vespa scooter (check)
Backpacking in Europe (check)

That's the short list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
If you're talking about the Venn diagram that is all of the above of urbanist, SWPL, and Florida's Creative Class, yes, that's a small group. But they're a vocal one with money. As a whole, the SWPL urbanistas aren't really that influential as a group. Their station in society just isn't very important, and while egalitarianism is great and all, the proles just don't effect that much change generally.
I agree. And they have publications like Atlantic Cities and Streetsblog that function as one gigantic echo chamber.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:58 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
BART is also the most efficient system in the area. It's the only one that makes sense to spend much money on. AC Transit was overfunded, which is the primary driver behind its dropping from ~25% farebox in the late '90s/2000 period to ~15% farebox by mid 2000s. They had to spend the money somewhere, so they made a bunch of stupid routes.
However, BART extensions are very expensive. Any new extension is going to do rather badly on a per rider basis, as the higher ridership areas are already served. BART to San Jose costs $5 billion.

Silicon Valley BART extension - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You'd get far more riders build a new underground subway in San Francisco or something in Oakland for that cost.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2014, 02:58 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Haha. See, I consider hipsters to be a subset of SWPLs. I have a checklist I usually run through to assess SWPLdom. A person need not have all of these to be a SWPL, but will likely have most of them.

NPR (check)
Obama voter (2008 Primary) (check)
Whole Foods/TJ shopper (check)
NYT/New Yorker/Economist subscription (check)
Patagonia/Helly Hansen/Canada Goose (check)
Degree from prestigious liberal arts school (automatic)
Microbrews (check)
Indie films (check)
Fair trade coffee (check)
Farmer's market (check)
Vespa scooter (check)
Backpacking in Europe (check)

That's the short list.
How many can you check?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top