U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-03-2014, 08:33 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,950 times
Reputation: 3030

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Not everyone feels the same way about public transit as you do, and opinions can change.
Yes. More than likely it will be yours that changes.
Of course when you change your mind after voting to saddle property owners and other taxpayers with large debt obligations it's a bit too late to avoid the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
....Oh and if one has to cram into a train car, that means a lot of people commute that way. That is like saying no one goes downtown because it is too crowded and busy.
Transit wins when the trains are full of people riding them.
Perhaps they commute that way because they have no choice (i.e., "transit dependent"). After all, your proposals are typically anti-car and designed to make it difficult and more costly to use a car in order to create an artificial demand for transit. Apparently transit "wins" only when other choices are deliberately blocked under faux theories of societal good.

A car is a form of mass transit. Cars are used to transport large numbers of people. A car is about as granular, practical, and efficient as you can get with decent carrying capacity and unlimited choices for the passengers of every car independently regarding starting place, starting time, route, and destination. Moreover, the car serves "to the doorstep". Cars also don't run "empty". Moreover you can exclude the noisy, the smelly, the obnoxious, the delinquents, and the thugs from your car. You shouldn't be surprised that large numbers of individuals do not share your analogy of the sardine packed "square" as anything they would want in or near their living room. This is in stark contrast to transit where start, route, and destinations are determined by third party "planners", service is not "to the doorstep", transit often runs nearly empty, and when you take it you get to take it with the noisy, the smelly, the obnoxious, the delinquents, and the thugs.

"Planners" have to diminish choice and independence in order to force artificial demand for specific transit modes. Just because a lot of people have no other choice doesn't mean the "choice" they are limited to is a good one.
Urban planners' dream for U.S. transit - high density population and lots of people crammed on a train. Must be a great place to live. I'm sure the passengers look forward to daily travel on their public transit system. How dare people want roads or something other than public transit!

Last edited by IC_deLight; 04-03-2014 at 08:59 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-03-2014, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,528,523 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Yes. More than likely it will be yours that changes.
Of course when you change your mind after voting to saddle property owners and other taxpayers with large debt obligations it's a bit too late to avoid the consequences.
Why would I change my mind from having options for transportation to just commuting by car? I grew up in a suburban metro where the only way to commute was by car and it was an awful way to live. I will never change my mind back to that lifestyle again.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I chose it because it's a trip I've done several times. Plenty of trips are clumsy without a car, however, if you don't go frequently from a neighborhood at one of the borough to another, a car may not be worth it.
It's not necessarily about going from one end of Brooklyn to another. It's an issue when you have to make shorter trips (say from Flatbush to Bed-Stuy), which many people do quite often. You can't get from Bed-Stuy to Flatbush in under 44 minutes via transit. In a car, that's usually about a 15-20 minute trip. And it's these shorter trips (when people are usually running errands) for which transit is a PITA. The Whole Foods and the Fairway parking lots stay busy for this reason. Who wants to spend 40+ minutes on transit each way when the same trip could be accomplished in a car in 40 minutes total? If you don't have a car, then you don't have a choice, but the other 43% of Brooklyn households that do tend to drive them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Another more general scenario: you walk to a nearby shopping area where the stores don't have their own parking. After you're done and need to go elsewhere (where there's a direct transit connection) instead going back to your car, why not just catch the transit line running on the street?
It depends on where I'm going and where I need to go. In DC, which is touted as one of our nation's transit meccas, I can't ever remember a time when I did any type of real shopping on transit. Running errands in my car was simply far more practical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:09 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,544 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Yes. More than likely it will be yours that changes.
Of course when you change your mind after voting to saddle property owners and other taxpayers with large debt obligations it's a bit too late to avoid the consequences.



Perhaps they commute that way because they have no choice (i.e., "transit dependent"). After all, your proposals are typically anti-car and designed to make it difficult and more costly to use a car in order to create an artificial demand for transit. Apparently transit "wins" only when other choices are deliberately blocked under faux theories of societal good.

A car is a form of mass transit. Cars are used to transport large numbers of people. A car is about as granular, practical, and efficient as you can get with decent carrying capacity and unlimited choices for the passengers of every car independently regarding starting place, starting time, route, and destination. Moreover, the car serves "to the doorstep". Cars also don't run "empty". Moreover you can exclude the noisy, the smelly, the obnoxious, the delinquents, and the thugs from your car. You shouldn't be surprised that large numbers of individuals do not share your analogy of the sardine packed "square" as anything they would want in or near their living room. This is in stark contrast to transit where start, route, and destinations are determined by third party "planners", service is not "to the doorstep", transit often runs nearly empty, and when you take it you get to take it with the noisy, the smelly, the obnoxious, the delinquents, and the thugs.

"Planners" have to diminish choice and independence in order to force artificial demand for specific transit modes. Just because a lot of people have no other choice doesn't mean the "choice" they are limited to is a good one.
Urban planners' dream for U.S. transit - high density population and lots of people crammed on a train. Must be a great place to live. I'm sure the passengers look forward to daily travel on their public transit system. How dare people want roads or something other than public transit!
Public transit is more feasible in cramp cities. There isn't room to build large or wider roads in old cities like NYC, Boston, or Chicago. The current road infrastructure which is at it's max makes it hard to get around, and it takes forever during rush hour. So a train is the best option as it's the quickest and cheapest way to get around.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Saying buses use roads is, again, disingenuous IMO. Yes, buses use roads, but not a majority of them. Roads are for personal drivers first and foremost. And with most transit systems drastically underfunded, poor bus systems are all that exist in most places (lucky for the transit riders). That's why in Richmond it's almost impossible to get funding for ONE dedicated bus lane...ONE in the whole city.
It's not disingenous. And it's not just buses that use roads. When your house catches on fire, are the firefighters supposed to arrive there on a subway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Perhaps in the coming 30 years, I'll get to say "live in the suburbs if you want an autocentric life" as it becomes more difficult to do so.
What is it with this fantasy of the suburbs drying up?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:10 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,950 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Why would I change my mind from having options for transportation to just commuting by car? I grew up in a suburban metro where the only way to commute was by car and it was an awful way to live. I will never change my mind back to that lifestyle again.
You already changed your mind about a job and where to live. You don't even have the experience to recognize that your needs or wants are going to change or to recognize that the choices you make now may well be decisions that you regret later - even though your recent history indicates just that. Moving back to Portland may not be all that you have spent so much time trying to convince everyone else that it will be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,528,523 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
You already changed your mind about a job and where to live. You don't even have the experience to recognize that your needs or wants are going to change or to recognize that the choices you make now may well be decisions that you regret later - even though your recent history indicates just that. Moving back to Portland may not be all that you have spent so much time trying to convince everyone else that it will be.
Yes, I have moved several times in my life and have had several jobs over the years, everyone has done that. What I haven't done is go back to the suburbia auto-centric lifestyle that I grew up in. And I will be moving back to Portland for good because I miss the transportation options that I had there. I liked being able to bike, walk, take transit, and drive to jobs and activities.

Portland was one of the best cities I have ever lived in, and moving back to Portland will be to put down roots and start a family. We already have tons of friends and family in Portland, Oregon, and Washington, so it just makes sense for us. The move to NYC was always meant to be a temporary thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Yes, I have moved several times in my life and have had several jobs over the years, everyone has done that. What I haven't done is go back to the suburbia auto-centric lifestyle that I grew up in. And I will be moving back to Portland for good because I miss the transportation options that I had there. I liked being able to bike, walk, take transit, and drive to jobs and activities.
Do you think you would view cities differently had you lived in one (a very dense one) from Pre-K through 12th Grade?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,528,523 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
So if it looks like a giant parking lot but isn't then it doesn't "disrupt the urban fabric", but if it looks like a giant parking lot and is then it "disrupts the urban fabric". A bit hypocritical?

A "town square" need not be a large unused space in the middle of town. Plenty of other town squares are based around a central amenity (e.g., courthouse) with other commercial enterprises surrounding them. They also have ROADS going around them so that people can get there from where they live and so the businesses there can ship and receive.

This continued focus on a "place for people to gather" sounds like something out of a bad sci-fi movie. Self-proclaimed planners seem to think that people are herd animals except for the planners who know best for the rest of us. The common thread among your posts is cramming people together whether it's by transit, housing density, or other means. Gotta tell you that most people do not share your desire to live like hamsters.
You are aware humans are social animals and it is common for humans to cluster together and gather in places. Have you ever been outside of your house and gone to a bar, festival, or any place that had more than just you in it? That is what a place for people to gather means. People use these spaces for all sorts of activities.

Also, the places I posted are not unused space in the middle of a town, they are both very active squares in a very active city. Also, both the squares I posted do have roads around them, though in Europe you have a better chance of finding a town square surrounded by buildings instead of roads.

The square in Portland is across the street from the courthouse building.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2014, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,528,523 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Do you think you would view cities differently had you lived in one (a very dense one) from Pre-K through 12th Grade?
Probably, where we grow up has a big effect on our lives. Though some people grow up in suburbia and prefer suburbia when they grow up, I was not one of those people. I never fit in with that suburbia lifestyle. I recently took my wife to where I grew up and she was able to see why I was happy to move away from where I grew up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top