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Old 04-07-2014, 08:19 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,950 times
Reputation: 3030

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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Yes, you have stated that you don't use transit, the counter argument is that millions of people do use transit everyday and millions live in those cities you would never live in. That is not something that is hard for anyone to comprehend or argue against.
Don't agree with the numbers but it is irrelevant. The title of the thread is "why people don't use mass transit" not "urbanlife78's excuses for transit and bike paths".

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
As for your assumption that you somehow know my life is completely false based on how you state it. My wife and I are moving back to Portland because we wish to be closer to family, especially when we have a kid.
Great. I can only imagine the types of arguments and discussions your wife is presently tolerating. Maybe you'll become less argumentative when you have dependents and more at risk. Perhaps then you'll also understand simple concepts like you can't take your kid to school and pick up much in the way of groceries on your bike. As your kid gets older and you actually participate in school and extracurricular activities you may find that mass transit and biking aren't very practical for say band, sporting events and workouts, carrying tri-fold presentation projects to school, etc. Sometimes it's better to remember a place than to expect it will be the same or meet your expectations when you return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
My love for Portland hasn't changed and I will spend more time on my bike and less time having to commute a long distance to work everyday allowing us to enjoy our lives more. Not a hard concept to understand.
Perhaps. Depending upon the job, however, you may find that as you gain more responsibilities you may not be leaving at drone time. Given the shorter days and the number of rainy days in Portland you may find biking to be rather impractical. In addition, if you need to give presentations or to be prepared for impromptu conferences, you may not have the luxury of being able to show up disheveled and smelly with the expectation that you can take a shower when you get to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Again false, how much do you think it would cost to put in a bicycle infrastructure? You seem to think it is too costly, yet it would be a fraction of what we spend on automotive infrastructure and have a greater impact around those that live within a 5 miles distance from where they work.
Very inefficient given the number of people riding bikes. Also expensive to implement and maintain, particularly when roads expand. As far as "those living within 5 miles distance from where they work", businesses/work places are distributed all over Portland not just downtown, so do you plan to implement this everywhere or just discriminate in favor of downtown? Bicycles aren't "mass transit". This thread is entitled "why people don't ride mass transit", not "urbanlife78's excuses for spending tax dollars on bike paths". Although a bit off topic, I'm adding a link to a video posted by BajanYankee regarding the theme of tax dollars being used to fund the lifestyle of a few for bicycling:
Rail transit projects on the backs of poor bus riders: Is this how progressives usually see it?
A direct link to the YouTube video is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rDFBtnotUU

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Finally, no one is saying you personally need to ride transit because I am riding transit, I just want you to understand that millions of Americans commute by transit every day.
I don't disagree that there are people who ride transit. What you have missed over and over again is that this thread is entitled "why people don't ride mass transit". Perhaps you can learn to accept that a much greater number of people do not ride transit instead of trying to argue why they "should", or suggest that their city is designed improperly, or to suggest that if they don't like being mugged they can just "protect themselves", or any other of the countless silly arguments made.

Last edited by IC_deLight; 04-07-2014 at 08:46 AM.. Reason: add links to video
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:55 AM
 
1,998 posts, read 2,934,174 times
Reputation: 2150
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
I think your numbers are optimistically high.
An NPR story with a highlight on Metra refers to 300,000 trips per weekday. Given that most folks make one trip in and another trip out, you're down to 150,000 people right off the bat. Maybe fewer if some make additional trips during the day
Commuters Ditch Cars For Public Transit In Record Numbers : NPR

San Francisco isn't really large, it's just extremely congested.
Try Houston. There's transit - and you need to drive to get to it.
Metra doesn't include CTA, which runs all of the public buses and subway trains in Chicagoland. CTA has 1.6 million rides per day: CTA | Facts at a Glance

New York's MTA has over 8 million riders on an average weekday.

DC Metro has 750,000 average riders per day.

Philadelphia's SEPTA is about 800,000.

Boston's MBTA is 1.3 million.

Totaling all of those is 12.45, or 6.2 million if you assume that most of those are people taking roundtrips.

This doesn't include every other city in the country nor does it include all systems in those cities (for example DC has commuter rail that's not part of the Metro system). So i would guess you'd get at least another 6 million if you counted everything.

12 million people is nearly 4% of a population of 317 million. Even 6 million is about 2%.

I don't think that's immaterial at all.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,533,646 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
No, in your own car you can listen to radio/conversation/music and still be aware of ambient noise around you. Moreover plenty of drivers enjoy not being subjected to the "music" of others. Unless you are one of those who wants to "share" your music with those who really don't want to hear it, then you are one of those wearing ear buds which means you are oblivious to the sounds around you (e.g., car honking because you veered into the car lane or because you are cycling erratically).

As far as the rest of the argument about "worrying" - the world is full of folks that don't want to have to worry about anything. After a while they are just drones. But perhaps it is better if you are not driving a car since you find it so disconcerting.

As far as your claim that the chances of getting mugged are "extremely low" and "typically can be prevented", the former depends in what part of the country/city you are talking about and the latter is just silly as it sounds like the blame the victim defense used in rape and other cases. There are certainly other defenses that can be employed when a mugging appears imminent but cities like Chicago and New York City criminalize being prepared to defend ... But thanks again for illustrating the naivety and lotus-eating nature of the urbanist pro-transit crowd.
You can buy an mp3 player that has radio access, not all transit runs underground. As for hearing other people's music, unless you are sharing ear buds you don't hear other music and if you have in ear buds then you definitely don't hear other people's music.

I am fully capable of driving, though city driving gets on my nerves, I prefer to enjoy being on my bike than sitting on my butt in a car.

So tell me, what place has a high crime rate on and around transit? As for crime being preventable, that is called being aware of your surroundings. Most crime on transit is phones being stolen because people aren't paying attention. You not knowing this clearly illustrates the nature of the anti-transit crowd.
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,533,646 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Don't agree with the numbers but it is irrelevant. The title of the thread is "why people don't use mass transit" not "urbanlife78's excuses for transit and bike paths".


Great. I can only imagine the types of arguments and discussions your wife is presently tolerating. Maybe you'll become less argumentative when you have dependents and more at risk. Perhaps then you'll also understand simple concepts like you can't take your kid to school and pick up much in the way of groceries on your bike. As your kid gets older and you actually participate in school and extracurricular activities you may find that mass transit and biking aren't very practical for say band, sporting events and workouts, carrying tri-fold presentation projects to school, etc. Sometimes it's better to remember a place than to expect it will be the same or meet your expectations when you return.


Perhaps. Depending upon the job, however, you may find that as you gain more responsibilities you may not be leaving at drone time. Given the shorter days and the number of rainy days in Portland you may find biking to be rather impractical. In addition, if you need to give presentations or to be prepared for impromptu conferences, you may not have the luxury of being able to show up disheveled and smelly with the expectation that you can take a shower when you get to work.



Very inefficient given the number of people riding bikes. Also expensive to implement and maintain, particularly when roads expand. As far as "those living within 5 miles distance from where they work", businesses/work places are distributed all over Portland not just downtown, so do you plan to implement this everywhere or just discriminate in favor of downtown? Bicycles aren't "mass transit". This thread is entitled "why people don't ride mass transit", not "urbanlife78's excuses for spending tax dollars on bike paths". Although a bit off topic, I'm adding a link to a video posted by BajanYankee regarding the theme of tax dollars being used to fund the lifestyle of a few for bicycling:
Rail transit projects on the backs of poor bus riders: Is this how progressives usually see it?
A direct link to the YouTube video is here

Washington, DC's Capital Bikeshare: Tax $$$ for Rich, Educated, White Riders - YouTube


I don't disagree that there are people who ride transit. What you have missed over and over again is that this thread is entitled "why people don't ride mass transit". Perhaps you can learn to accept that a much greater number of people do not ride transit instead of trying to argue why they "should", or suggest that their city is designed improperly, or to suggest that if they don't like being mugged they can just "protect themselves", or any other of the countless silly arguments made.
Yes that is the title of this thread, and you make very valid points on why you don't like transit. Just don't assume that no one likes transit because you don't.

Also millions ride transit, you can disagree with a fact, but that doesn't change a fact.

The U.S. Cities Where the Fewest Commuters Get to Work By Car - Emily Badger - The Atlantic Cities

Oh and it is Portland, we aren't scared of biking in the rain there.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:13 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,950 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by stateofnature View Post
Metra doesn't include CTA, which runs all of the public buses and subway trains in Chicagoland. CTA has 1.6 million rides per day: CTA | Facts at a Glance

New York's MTA has over 8 million riders on an average weekday.

DC Metro has 750,000 average riders per day.

Philadelphia's SEPTA is about 800,000.

Boston's MBTA is 1.3 million.

Totaling all of those is 12.45, or 6.2 million if you assume that most of those are people taking roundtrips.

This doesn't include every other city in the country nor does it include all systems in those cities (for example DC has commuter rail that's not part of the Metro system). So i would guess you'd get at least another 6 million if you counted everything.

12 million people is nearly 4% of a population of 317 million. Even 6 million is about 2%.

I don't think that's immaterial at all.
Well save your arguments for why 2% is relevant for an accounting or actuarial thread. The relevance would not be the 2% but rather than amount of tax dollars spent for the 2%

This thread is "why people don't use mass transit".
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:34 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,351,950 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Yes that is the title of this thread, and you make very valid points on why you don't like transit. Just don't assume that no one likes transit because you don't.

Also millions ride transit, you can disagree with a fact, but that doesn't change a fact.
Your "fact" is irrelevant and immaterial to the issue of "why people don't use mass transit" which is the topic of this thread. Go start your own thread about "why people use transit" and you can preach your version of virtues to drone urbanist head nodders.


Quote:
The U.S. Cities Where the Fewest Commuters Get to Work By Car - Emily Badger - The Atlantic Cities

Oh and it is Portland, we aren't scared of biking in the rain there.
I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't one of your skills? You need to re-read the article you linked to.

First although the text says it includes a chart for the "northwest", the chart is for the northeast - which makes no reference to the Portland you are referring to.

Second, the only mention of Portland in the article* is with reference to "biking mode share". That merely shows that there has been an increase in "biking mode share", i.e., that there has been an increase in the use of bicycling. Doesn't tell you what it was before or what it is now, just that there has been an increase in the "% of trips by bike". For that matter the chart doesn't even correspond to commutes. "Mode share" is not equivalent to bicycling as the predominant mode. I guess some people enjoy riding a bike to a bus station, loading the bike on the bus, commuting by bus somewhere near the destination, taking the bike off, securing the bike somewhere and then heading into the office to shower. Lather, rinse, repeat for the trip home. The number you are so proud of doesn't even appear to have even kept up with the population growth in Portland over the same time period.

Although biking is not mass transit, since the number only shows an increase in "biking mode share" (although the y-axis only say '% biking trips') in an amount that isn't population growth adjusted, I really don't see what you hoped to illustrate (unsuccessfully) with this article. This thread is about "why people don't take mass transit".



*Portland is shown in another chart but the chart simply compares cities on the basis of percentage of commutes by bike, walk, or transit. That chart does not differentiate between the different modes and certainly doesn't expound on either your hypothesis nor the thread topic of "why people don't use mass transit"

Last edited by IC_deLight; 04-07-2014 at 11:25 AM..
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:35 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,171,331 times
Reputation: 7739
How Transit Pays for the Automobile’s Sins | Streetsblog USA
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:36 AM
 
1,998 posts, read 2,934,174 times
Reputation: 2150
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Well save your arguments for why 2% is relevant for an accounting or actuarial thread. The relevance would not be the 2% but rather than amount of tax dollars spent for the 2%

This thread is "why people don't use mass transit".
So it was on-topic for you to (wrongly) say that my estimate of millions was "optimistically high" but it's off-topic for me to correct you.

It's all completely on topic. To know why people don't use mass transit it helps to know how many actually do and don't use it.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:40 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,171,331 times
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The biggest reason people do not use transit is because it doesn't get them where they need to go. That said if it didn not all would.

Now we have developed job centers in a fashion where PT options are impractical, inefficient, and expensive to build. PT isn't for everywhere but we also haven't been smart in the way it was put together

Sprawled job centers become more impractical longer term as they require more roads while initially offer cheap land and cost to develop.

Better planning on the whole would be better.

Whether it be with PT or not - there are times when it makes sense and other times it does not
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,533,646 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Your "fact" is irrelevant and immaterial to the issue of "why people don't use mass transit" which is the topic of this thread. Go start your own thread about "why people use transit" and you can preach your version of virtues to drone urbanist head nodders.


I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't one of your skills? You need to re-read the article you linked to.

First although the text says it includes a chart for the "northwest", the chart is for the northeast - which makes no reference to the Portland you are referring to.

Second, the only mention of Portland in the article* is with reference to "biking mode share". That merely shows that there has been an increase in "biking mode share", i.e., that there has been an increase in the use of bicycling for some portion of a commuter's trip. Doesn't tell you what it was before or what it is now, just that there has been an increase in the number of commuters using a bike for some portion of their commute. "Mode share" is not equivalent to bicycling as the predominant mode. I guess some people enjoy riding a bike to a bus station, loading the bike on the bus, commuting by bus somewhere near the destination, taking the bike off, securing the bike somewhere and then heading into the office to shower. Lather, rinse, repeat for the trip home. The number you are so proud of doesn't even appear to have even kept up with the population growth in Portland over the same time period.

Although biking is not mass transit, since the number only shows an increase in "biking mode share" in an amount that isn't population growth adjusted, I really don't see what you hoped to illustrate (unsuccessfully) with this article. This thread is about "why people don't take mass transit".



*Portland is shown in another chart but the chart simply compares cities on the basis of percentage of commutes by bike, walk, or transit. That chart does not differentiate between the different modes and certainly doesn't expound on either your hypothesis nor the thread topic of "why people don't use mass transit"
Speaking of reading comprehension, my comment about biking in the rain was not related to the article, it was in relation to an off handed comment you made about people not biking in the rain, we Portlanders aren't afraid to bike in the rain.

Oh and those aren't "my facts" they are just actual facts.

And you are correct, this thread is about why people don't use transit, so please continue telling us why you don't use transit.
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