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Old 03-24-2014, 11:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by never-more View Post
Reading any thread from those forums, you will notice a general theme that one of the push factors is high housing prices, specifically single-family housing. Now, many of these areas also have implemented strategies aimed at curtailing urban sprawl. So are smart growth plans pushing people trying to pursue the idealistic 'American dream' of a suburban home and cars away from these areas? Of course, there is other factors such as taxes, but we're focusing on this single issue.

Before anyone adds in Portland and Seattle as a counterexample, I will say that these regions still have much land to sprawl on. Most likely, voters will strengthen the sprawl containment zones and from there, prices would likely increase.
You are pushing the endless greener pastures myth. Just build a little more here, a little more there and land is essentially infinite. Sorry, it's just not workable. Water supplies alone will limit it. Wtness the California drought, which I hope sends a resounding message, finally. People don't respect limits until a wall is hit. Even in apparently lush Portland Metro, some suburbs are planning to draw from the Willamette river to accommodate more growth.

We should heed the same growth limits we expect of other species vs. constant exceptions for our own kind and the blessed "economy" aka debt-based pyramid scheme.

It's no more intelligent to grow the population forever on a big planet than a small island. The scale is the only difference. Growthism is a sick philosophy either way. When you ask growth-apologists when it must finally stop, they change the subject or mumble platitudes. They constantly kick a fatter can down the road.

Thinking people see that perpetual growth of the human population and economy is insane, being as this is a finite planet. But that's too logical and "uneconomical" for money-driven zombies.

Sites like Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy have a workable alternative but few drones will take note. They want in on the Ponzi scheme while it lasts, and don't care that it's based on fossil fuel capital, not renewable energy income.

Last edited by ca_north; 03-24-2014 at 11:53 PM..
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:00 AM
 
981 posts, read 1,996,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
I don't think it's so much smart growth, but rather just the high cost of living compared to income. It's possible to make it work, but with less...the benefits being proximity to the particular area. For example, you can still have the true suburban lifestyle in New Jersey or Long Island, you'll pay $400k-$800k for a house and $8k-$15 a year in property tax (among other increases like tolls, cost of fuel, cost of goods and commute time) that you could probably find a similar house in a similar type of neighborhood for half or even less of those prices around another city. The difference being that the NJ or LI ones put you within commutable distance of Manhattan and that proximity is what makes it so much.

The problem I have is that even with the higher incomes of the NYC area, I find that it's still hard to find an affordable suburban living arrangement...this isn't really a problem of anyone but myself, it's just the way it is. I wouldn't mind finding an area along the East Coast that has a decent level of well paying jobs in my field (software) but has lower housing cost, at the expense of being a 4-10 hour drive from Manhattan versus commutable distance. I'd want to be in that range of NYC since it's my home, but the more I think about it the more I don't see the worth of the proximity when I don't really have the need to be in Manhattan all the time. I can always drive back to see friends/family in Staten Island, so no biggie there.

This is primarily why I'm always looking up jobs/housing in the NoVa/DC suburbs, North Carolina and even Philly suburbs in PA, since I think I'll probably make my exodus from this money sucking region eventually lol. Similar reasons (and distance from home) are also why I've pretty much ruled out California, since I'd have to super-commute to be able to afford a decent size (not McMansion) suburban home.
All that monetary analysis and not one mention of the fact that this planet is finite? We live in a physical world, not a big bank. Do you know that the world population is growing by around 80,000,000 each year? That is the real growth problem, swelling into America as immigration.

Then again, our economic system demands endless growth for debt repayment, so it's an enabler of the very things people who are part of it keep complaining about.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something they invest in

(Dylan lyrics)
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,152 posts, read 103,079,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
But is that responsible for any out migration from California and the northeast?
No; I think they only thing that matters is jobs, and to a certain extent in the NE, climate.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:05 AM
 
2,832 posts, read 3,375,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_north View Post
All that monetary analysis and not one mention of the fact that this planet is finite? We live in a physical world, not a big bank. Do you know that the world population is growing by around 80,000,000 each year? That is the real growth problem, swelling into America as immigration.

Then again, our economic system demands endless growth for debt repayment, so it's an enabler of the very things people who are part of it keep complaining about.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something they invest in

(Dylan lyrics)
So what do you propose, the scheme in "Logan's Run" with "Carnival" held a couple of times a year? Perhaps "Red Hour" from Star Trek: Original Series - Return of the Archons?
Maybe you prefer green crackers and government euthanasia clinics? (aka Solyent Green)?

Don't eat the green crackers...
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Richmond/Philadelphia/Brooklyn
1,263 posts, read 1,280,697 times
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Considering that this movement from the Northeast has been going on for much of the post WWII era (New York State LOST population in the 1970s), and that smart growth is an urban planning movement which is nationwide, and has only gained mainstream attraction in the past 15 or so years, I would argue that there is not much of a correlation at all. Rather much of the outward migration (at least from the Northeast) has been from the decline of industrial jobs.
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Old 03-25-2014, 03:17 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,993 posts, read 42,285,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pantin23 View Post
Considering that this movement from the Northeast has been going on for much of the post WWII era (New York State LOST population in the 1970s), and that smart growth is an urban planning movement which is nationwide, and has only gained mainstream attraction in the past 15 or so years, I would argue that there is not much of a correlation at all. Rather much of the outward migration (at least from the Northeast) has been from the decline of industrial jobs.
See NY state, both downstate and upstate.



Rust Belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

link has key, obviously darker red is more job losses.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Richmond/Philadelphia/Brooklyn
1,263 posts, read 1,280,697 times
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Exactly, a lot of those red areas are around heavily industrial cities.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:29 AM
 
8,328 posts, read 14,621,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
So what do you propose, the scheme in "Logan's Run" with "Carnival" held a couple of times a year? Perhaps "Red Hour" from Star Trek: Original Series - Return of the Archons?
Maybe you prefer green crackers and government euthanasia clinics? (aka Solyent Green)?

Don't eat the green crackers...
Higher levels of public education and public health, and available birth control. Educated, healthy people have fewer kids and have them later in life, and it's a lot simpler to control population before conception than afterward. And usually easier. No China-style population control measures, vaporizing yourself at age 30, or people-flavored crackers necessary.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:44 AM
 
2,832 posts, read 3,375,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Higher levels of public education and public health, and available birth control. Educated, healthy people have fewer kids and have them later in life, and it's a lot simpler to control population before conception than afterward. And usually easier. No China-style population control measures, vaporizing yourself at age 30, or people-flavored crackers necessary.
There is more to it than "education". Government indoctrination programs have their own problems. All you might accomplish is changing which racial/ethnic groups are numerically dominant because there are plenty of other groups for which such government indoctrination will be rejected.
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,704,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
There is more to it than "education". Government indoctrination programs have their own problems. All you might accomplish is changing which racial/ethnic groups are numerically dominant because there are plenty of other groups for which such government indoctrination will be rejected.
What government indoctrinations are you referring to?
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