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Old 04-06-2014, 08:23 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yes, aren't all those bricks lovely? Who needs trees? Chop 'em down! I happen to have been there. I told my nephew, a landscape architect, not to move to Europe. There's no need for his field over there. Just pave/brick it over and stick up a statue. I was not impressed.
Yes, I think it's a nice square. I'd prefer more trees, but it's not the end of the world, loud traffic noise would worse IMO. As bricks they're nicer than a surface parking lot.

As for landscaping, there's obviously little landscaping in and around the town square. That doesn't mean the entire area is like that. Local parks, gardens are landscaped. I've seen a number of large public gardens in Europe. Newer parts of the city aren't as barren of greenery, either. Some more landscaped parts [different city]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Utrec...68.53,,0,-1.19
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:26 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,148,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
As far as I can tell, pedestrians, bikes, trolleys (noisy!!!) and buses (noisy!!!! and smelly!!!!!!) use the same routes around the parks - erm, excuse me, town squares - as cars.

Traffic noise has never diminished my enjoyment of the central gathering place.

Funny how the same people who celebrate eating dinner a few yards from traffic at sidewalk cafes would shudder at the noise of traffic experienced from deep inside a city park. Consistency, thou art a jewel.
part of the allure of a sidewalk cafe to me is the entertainment of life; pedestrians etc. Like a canvas of the world that is constantly changing

Park on the other hand offer a respite from the grind so-to-speak so a little different

Also on this topic - there are large parks and more pocket parks that sort of serve as a different offering - for example in my hometown a place like Rittenhouse is sort of parts of both a town square and a park - a hybrid of sorts.

On street cafes- as stated I enjoy nice weather and people watching so enjoy them - care traffic fades mostly into the background a bit IMHO if done correctly.

https://www.centercityphila.org/docs...ewalkCafes.pdf
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:27 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,988 posts, read 102,554,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post

Think there was a farmer's market going on. No one else brought up sidewalk cafes before your post, and it wasn't the topic of the thread, so I don't know if these "quieter" examples count as quiet enough for you. I don't really get what you were trying to argue. Less traffic noiser than more traffic noise, at least when possible. What exactly is the hypocrisy? For large parks, I expect than much more free of traffic noise than either, I expect them to be more natural.
I happen to agree with ohiogirl81, and I'm answering for myself here.

None of those pictures you posted were residential streets tucked away somewhere, like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9768...kXxmovlhQw!2e0

Now a few blocks east, Pine St. looks like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9768...pUDOK7slHQ!2e0

The hypocrisy is that there's plenty of traffic noise passing by a place like the second picture depicts. This is supposed to be quite "hip", and indeed, I have eaten there. But somehow hearing traffic from inside a park is somehow not acceptable, and not "urbanist".
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:36 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I happen to agree with ohiogirl81, and I'm answering for myself here.

None of those pictures you posted were residential streets tucked away somewhere, like this:

The hypocrisy is that there's plenty of traffic noise passing by a place like the second picture depicts. This is supposed to be quite "hip", and indeed, I have eaten there. But somehow hearing traffic from inside a park is somehow not acceptable, and not "urbanist".
I never claimed they were free of traffic. Though they'd be nicer if they had less traffic. Same with town squares or small parks. What's exactly is the hypocrisy?

As to the bolded, don't remember reading that, except ciscokid, who doesn't like any noisy street. I assume you're talking about small parks. Large parks you shouldn't be able to hear traffic noise, so that they feel not urban.

No even mentioned sidewalk cafes before
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:37 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,985 posts, read 41,937,844 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
part of the allure of a sidewalk cafe to me is the entertainment of life; pedestrians etc. Like a canvas of the world that is constantly changing

Park on the other hand offer a respite from the grind so-to-speak so a little different
That makes sense, good way to describe the difference.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:43 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,988 posts, read 102,554,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I never claimed they were free of traffic. Though they'd be nicer if they had less traffic. So would town squares. As to the bolded, don't remember reading that, except ciscokid, who doesn't like any noisy street. I assume you're talking about small parks. Large parks you shouldn't be able to hear traffic noise, so that they feel not urban.
Oh, there were several who made statements like that, including the OP. I'm not going to slog back through the thread to find the posts. The point about the cafes was that it is considered oh, so hip by some to sit out on a noisy city street and drink coffee, sip wine, eat dinner, etc yet so horrendous for there to be traffic anywhere near a town square, particularly one in a park.

Now I would like to say a few words about this whole debate on what is a town square? ANY place that allows people to gather should be considered a "town square". Some small towns/cities back east have an area known as "THE" town square; that's what I attempted to show.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:47 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Reputation: 14804
Whatever. I gave my opinion on the subject and some rather lengthy posts.

Some of these arguments seem like they're about nothing.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:21 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,148,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
I don't know of too many sidewalk cafes that aren't on a main drag. That's my experience. Vilify it all you want, but it doesn't change it.

The constant moving of goalposts and changing of definitions in this thread has been quite irritating.
Most are on a main drag but not exclusive to it

There are many (probably hundreds) in Philly that are not on the main drag - many more that are though

A town square generally is more a hub of different types of activity, vibrant and mixed in use - generalities but hold true based on my experience in both more urban and less urban areas. Town squares are a type of meeting place and function a lot as public gathering spaces - generally in some form of urban setting - whether that be a city proper or small town core.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,509,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, there were several who made statements like that, including the OP. I'm not going to slog back through the thread to find the posts. The point about the cafes was that it is considered oh, so hip by some to sit out on a noisy city street and drink coffee, sip wine, eat dinner, etc yet so horrendous for there to be traffic anywhere near a town square, particularly one in a park.

Now I would like to say a few words about this whole debate on what is a town square? ANY place that allows people to gather should be considered a "town square". Some small towns/cities back east have an area known as "THE" town square; that's what I attempted to show.
I have never said anything about needing places to be car free, not sure why you would think that.

The places you originally shown were quite nice, had the space around the fountains and statues been dedicated to pedestrians instead of cars, they would have made beautiful little town squares.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Most are on a main drag but not exclusive to it

There are many (probably hundreds) in Philly that are not on the main drag - many more that are though

A town square generally is more a hub of different types of activity, vibrant and mixed in use - generalities but hold true based on my experience in both more urban and less urban areas. Town squares are a type of meeting place and function a lot as public gathering spaces - generally in some form of urban setting - whether that be a city proper or small town core.
I would say many of the streets in Philly are very small streets that tend to be more pedestrian friendly, which makes for a great atmosphere for outdoor cafes.

Town squares that are designed around the pedestrian often times are lined with outdoor cafes from the buildings that surround the square, which is common in Europe.
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