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Old 06-29-2014, 04:55 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
And if all the units in the building come with built-in stoves and some bachelor never uses his stove, it is the same situation as with a parking space that is not used. I agree that the cost of providing a parking space is greater than zero, i.e., that it costs something, but only people with an ideological axe to grind about automobile use are going to get upset about such trivia.

In our society having a car is normal, and that is true even though not everyone has one. In some societies that may not be the case. Just like in our society having indoor plumbing is normal, and that is true even though not everyone has it, at least in rural areas. In some societies that may not be the case.
The cost is not trivial in denser urban areas. It may be normal, but in dense cities in a large fraction doesn't have one (does it make sense in say, New York City?). Indoor plumbing is a near universal and can considered a basic necessity. The other downsides are the space requirements for parking that could be used for more housing. For older neighborhoods (say an old row house neighborhood), off street parking is often added in ways that look unattractive and clash with existing architecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
We don't see people railing about indoor plumbing, yet we see them railing about car use. If people don't want to own a car, they are free to move to a location where being car free works out for them. This is not unheard of. So what is the big deal?
We don't see people railing about indoor plumbing because no one thinks it's reasonable to live in a non-remote location without it. But should locations where being car free is practical require off street parking?
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
No one is saying no one can have a car ever, but looking at trends, we need to stop subsidizing a lifestyle less and less people want. In my region, the riders of the commuter rail that serves Silicon Valley had an average income of about $115k. And 40% of the riders do not have a car, are you sure that cars are "normal?"
Yes, I am sure that cars are normal, although I agree that there are unusual situations such as Manhattan where car ownership may not be worth it. I do not know one single person under the age of 85 who does not have a car. And no, I am not a hermit or a recluse; I know lots and lots of people.

As for Silicon Valley, I haven't been in that area for a long time so I can't claim to know anything about it. It must be another one of those weird situations like Manhattan then.

Oops, after racking my brain, I do know a 29-year-old female who does not own a car at the moment - she lives in Manhattan.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Yes, I am sure that cars are normal, although I agree that there are unusual situations such as Manhattan where car ownership may not be worth it. I do not know one single person under the age of 85 who does not have a car.And no, I am not a hermit or a recluse; I know lots and lots of people.

As for Silicon Valley, I haven't been in that area for a long time so I can't claim to know anything about it. It must be another one of those weird situations like Manhattan then.

Oops, after racking my brain, I do know a 29-year-old female who does not own a car at the moment - she lives in Manhattan.
Virtually everyone uses a car, only because so few locations throughout the US offer a viable alternative to the car. But, it seems to me that one of the first excuses for not providing--or improving--alternatives to the car, is to say that everyone uses a car.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
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Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
Virtually everyone uses a car, only because so few locations throughout the US offer a viable alternative to the car. But, it seems to me that one of the first excuses for not providing--or improving--alternatives to the car, is to say that everyone uses a car.
Excuses?? "Only" because so few locations are suitable for the car free?? Sorry, none of that makes sense to me.
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Yes, I am sure that cars are normal, although I agree that there are unusual situations such as Manhattan where car ownership may not be worth it. I do not know one single person under the age of 85 who does not have a car. And no, I am not a hermit or a recluse; I know lots and lots of people.

As for Silicon Valley, I haven't been in that area for a long time so I can't claim to know anything about it. It must be another one of those weird situations like Manhattan then.

Oops, after racking my brain, I do know a 29-year-old female who does not own a car at the moment - she lives in Manhattan.
I've got at least 10 friends in my immediate social circle who are careless and live in the Bay Area. And half if those don't have drivers licenses. Most of which are over 30 in the car free club (and I am not thinking of friends that live in San Francisco which has about a60% car ownership rate).

So you might be in a bubble.

I am not counting my NYC based friends (who of course don't have cars). Several of my neighbors are also car-free and roughly 20% of the people in my neighborhood are transit dependent. Average income is about $75k. It is dense but not Manhattan dense at roughly 12k residents per square mile..

Car-free life is much more common than you think. Not ever city or neighborhood is equally car-dependent.*

Silicon Valley is much like LA in terms of sprawl. With a handful of denser neighborhoods.
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Old 06-29-2014, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I've got at least 10 friends in my immediate social circle who are careless and live in the Bay Area. And half if those don't have drivers licenses. Most of which are over 30 in the car free club (and I am not thinking of friends that live in San Francisco which has about a60% car ownership rate).

So you might be in a bubble.

I am not counting my NYC based friends (who of course don't have cars). Several of my neighbors are also car-free and roughly 20% of the people in my neighborhood are transit dependent. Average income is about $75k. It is dense but not Manhattan dense at roughly 12k residents per square mile..

Car-free life is much more common than you think. Not ever city or neighborhood is equally car-dependent.*

Silicon Valley is much like LA in terms of sprawl. With a handful of denser neighborhoods.
I would suggest you are in a bubble - the Bay Area bubble. I know people (all with cars) in Buffalo, NY; Little Rock, AR; Baton Rouge, LA (over a dozen people there); Houston, TX; Austin, TX; Dallas, TX; Las Cruces, NM; Blue Ridge, GA; LaGrange, GA; Tallahassee, FL; Jackson, MS; Washington DC (a suburb of); Kansas City, KS; Denver, CO (a suburb of); Kirkwood, MO; western (rural) Pennsylvania; Sacramento, CA; in addition to the probably hundreds of people I know in various parts of the Los Angeles area.

You are confirming my suspicion that the Bay Area is a strange and inexplicable place, not to be taken as a norm except unto itself.
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Old 06-29-2014, 02:22 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,089,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Yes, I am sure that cars are normal, although I agree that there are unusual situations such as Manhattan where car ownership may not be worth it. I do not know one single person under the age of 85 who does not have a car. And no, I am not a hermit or a recluse; I know lots and lots of people.
Your social circle is rather different than mine, then. I would find it rather surprising you know no one who doesn't own a car. While it is the norm in most of America it is not universally true everywhere in the country. Instead of assuming people are just making an anti-car belief for the sake of it, you could consider another possibility: that the posters are focusing on or live in places where almost every adult has a car. To me, an analogy with of a stove with a car seems absurd, the former seems much more basic. To be as polite as I can, you seem to have the habit of assuming anyone making an anti-car policy statement is making it for a blind hatred of cars. While, yes there are some that do, a lot of the times people see downsides in accommodating cars that you take for granted.

I don't live in a big city, but for a few years didn't own a car. The other silly statement is referring to not owning a car as a lifestyle choice. When is not owning something a lifestyle choice? Except for a few types, most people who don't own a car don't own a car because the advantages of owning a car aren't worth the extra cost. While sometimes driving isn't the best mode of transportation for a trip, owning a car almost always has more advantages than not owning a car by giving you more choices.

Btw, there is a regular Los Angeles poster who doesn't own a car; though his wife has a car so they're not exactly car-free but not neither would a car per person assumption be correct. Car ownership-wise Bay Area is little different from Philadelphia, Boston and DC (also Chicago) and nowhere close to the low car owning levels of New York City. So from the perspective of Northeastern big cities, which are what I think of when I think of big cities, the Bay Area seems more normal than Los Angeles, not a strange and inexplicable place at all, though it is for other reasons.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Your social circle is rather different than mine, then. I would find it rather surprising you know no one who doesn't own a car. While it is the norm in most of America it is not universally true everywhere in the country. Instead of assuming people are just making an anti-car belief for the sake of it, you could consider another possibility: that the posters are focusing on or live in places where almost every adult has a car. To me, an analogy with of a stove with a car seems absurd, the former seems much more basic. To be as polite as I can, you seem to have the habit of assuming anyone making an anti-car policy statement is making it for a blind hatred of cars. While, yes there are some that do, a lot of the times people see downsides in accommodating cars that you take for granted.

I don't live in a big city, but for a few years didn't own a car. The other silly statement is referring to not owning a car as a lifestyle choice. When is not owning something a lifestyle choice? Except for a few types, most people who don't own a car don't own a car because the advantages of owning a car aren't worth the extra cost. While sometimes driving isn't the best mode of transportation for a trip, owning a car almost always has more advantages than not owning a car by giving you more choices.

Btw, there is a regular Los Angeles poster who doesn't own a car; though his wife has a car so they're not exactly car-free but not neither would a car per person assumption be correct. Car ownership-wise Bay Area is little different from Philadelphia, Boston and DC (also Chicago) and nowhere close to the low car owning levels of New York City. So from the perspective of Northeastern big cities, which are what I think of when I think of big cities, the Bay Area seems more normal than Los Angeles, not a strange and inexplicable place at all, though it is for other reasons.
In other words, a lifestyle choice (re: bold).

Most couples I know under 85 have at least one car between the two of them. My single nephew in Chicago doesn't own a car, but his live-in girlfriend does, and he recently bought a motorcycle. His ex in Denver doesn't own a car, but until recently was living with a guy who did own one.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:18 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,089,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
In other words, a lifestyle choice (re: bold).
Techincally, yes. But it's a different view then "I'm going to partake in the car-free lifestyle".

Quote:
Most couples I know under 85 have at least one car between the two of them. My single nephew in Chicago doesn't own a car, but his live-in girlfriend does, and he recently bought a motorcycle. His ex in Denver doesn't own a car, but until recently was living with a guy who did own one.
I thought EscortRider meant one car per every adult so those examples wouldn't count. Excluding New York City, I can think of a couple in Boston (well, Cambridge to be exact) that has no car. And they lived in an apartment building that had no parking unless it was hidden somewhere I missed.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
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Default Stove versus car

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
...... To me, an analogy of a stove with a car seems absurd, the former seems much more basic.. .
Yes, I do understand how that analogy would seem absurd to you, but if I had to choose whether to give up my stove or my car I would give up the stove and the decision would not even be close.

I am divorced and live alone. I don't really cook for myself in the true meaning of "cook". I usually fry an egg in the morning, but I could give that up and just have the toast and cold cereal. I normally eat out for the noon meal and just snack at night. I use my car more times a week than I use my stove. My life would be totally different without a car, but pretty much the same without the stove.
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