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Old 06-29-2014, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,763,041 times
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Nei and Jade408, you have both been so courteous to me, and I do appreciate it. You know, I think a lot of my basic attitude toward car ownership is a generational thing. I am 70. When I was growing up we males just could not wait to get our driver's licenses; it was the most important rite of passage there was - the key to manhood and independence. And the driving itself was (and remains) such a pure joy. Most of us worked on the cars with our fathers, so we developed an appreciation of what made them tick. Today, as cars are run to a great extent with little computers, they have become too complex and sophisticated for most home maintenance, so that bonding of father and son over the car has become a thing of the past.

Back in my day most of us learned on a manual transmission (stick shift) car. That required a bit more skill, and hence was a greater source of pride upon mastery. It gave us more of a feeling of controlling the car ourselves and to this day I still have stick shift cars by my choice.

My world, in many respects, no longer exists. But certain attitudes, when they are deeply seated and engrained, are hard if not impossible to eradicate. Therefore I will never really "understand" emotionally people who don't want cars. I understand them intellectually, as I am not stupid. I understand that cars cost money to own and operate and that if one lives near public transit and one's job is near public transit, then not having a car makes sense absent the emotional attachment to them. People who don't have cars are used to whatever arrangements are necessary to get around to the non-job aspects of where they want to go, and I maintain that there is an automatic restriction of where one "wants" to go which remains largely subconscious.

I am intelligent enough to realize that my thinking is retrograde in several different areas of modern life, from my attitude toward tattoos on to many other things. Thus I repeat: This is partly a generational thing.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,048,502 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Yes, I do understand how that analogy would seem absurd to you, but if I had to choose whether to give up my stove or my car I would give up the stove and the decision would not even be close.

I am divorced and live alone. I don't really cook for myself in the true meaning of "cook". I usually fry an egg in the morning, but I could give that up and just have the toast and cold cereal. I normally eat out for the noon meal and just snack at night. I use my car more times a week than I use my stove. My life would be totally different without a car, but pretty much the same without the stove.
That didn't occur to me. But going back to the analogy, there's one difference: without an off street parking one can still a car, it will just be less convenient, how much so depends on the area. There's street parking. I know people who rely on it, I often street park my car and could handle just using street parking. I know for sure one poster, BajanYankee, living in Brooklyn, has a car and no off-street parking and doesn't find it too onerous. Most car owners don't have off street parking there.

Yes, there are downsides of street parking, but it usually doesn't make not having a car impossible.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,714,577 times
Reputation: 26676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Nei and Jade408, you have both been so courteous to me, and I do appreciate it. You know, I think a lot of my basic attitude toward car ownership is a generational thing. I am 70. When I was growing up we males just could not wait to get our driver's licenses; it was the most important rite of passage there was - the key to manhood and independence. And the driving itself was (and remains) such a pure joy. Most of us worked on the cars with our fathers, so we developed an appreciation of what made them tick. Today, as cars are run to a great extent with little computers, they have become too complex and sophisticated for most home maintenance, so that bonding of father and son over the car has become a thing of the past.

Back in my day most of us learned on a manual transmission (stick shift) car. That required a bit more skill, and hence was a greater source of pride upon mastery. It gave us more of a feeling of controlling the car ourselves and to this day I still have stick shift cars by my choice.

My world, in many respects, no longer exists. But certain attitudes, when they are deeply seated and engrained, are hard if not impossible to eradicate. Therefore I will never really "understand" emotionally people who don't want cars. I understand them intellectually, as I am not stupid. I understand that cars cost money to own and operate and that if one lives near public transit and one's job is near public transit, then not having a car makes sense absent the emotional attachment to them. People who don't have cars are used to whatever arrangements are necessary to get around to the non-job aspects of where they want to go, and I maintain that there is an automatic restriction of where one "wants" to go which remains largely subconscious.

I am intelligent enough to realize that my thinking is retrograde in several different areas of modern life, from my attitude toward tattoos on to many other things. Thus I repeat: This is partly a generational thing.
You are part of the generation that got to "drive for fun."

Now we have to drive for everything in many places. There is no "choice." It is basically drive for fun, drive for work, drive for groceries, drive for ice cream.....

It became more chore and less pleasure. The cars are an appliance, not an accessory.

I have a friend who doesn't have a microwave. I find that unimaginable. There are so many things that are so fast to do in the microwave. But the difference is, if you don't have a microwave you can still cook. We have increasingly built environments where not having a car makes living impossible. And that is the problem! There is no alternative.

The problem is that when your car isn't available, you can't get to work, you can't get groceries, you can't really function. And not everyone wants or can have a car.
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Old 06-30-2014, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,896 posts, read 7,667,226 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Excuses?? "Only" because so few locations are suitable for the car free?? Sorry, none of that makes sense to me.
Jade summed it up well in her last post. Today, everyone drives not because they want to, (though I'm sure there are plenty who do like driving) but because there is no choice but to drive, in most places in the US. And often, in discussions like this, people will ask why we should spend more money on alternatives to driving, when everyone drives?

In summary:
- everyone drives because there are so few places that offer viable alternatives
- so few places offer viable alternatives, because there is little support for them
- there is little support for viable alternatives to driving, because everyone drives
See what a vicious cycle that is?
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Old 06-30-2014, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,567,055 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
I would suggest you are in a bubble - the Bay Area bubble. I know people (all with cars) in Buffalo, NY; Little Rock, AR; Baton Rouge, LA (over a dozen people there); Houston, TX; Austin, TX; Dallas, TX; Las Cruces, NM; Blue Ridge, GA; LaGrange, GA; Tallahassee, FL; Jackson, MS; Washington DC (a suburb of); Kansas City, KS; Denver, CO (a suburb of); Kirkwood, MO; western (rural) Pennsylvania; Sacramento, CA; in addition to the probably hundreds of people I know in various parts of the Los Angeles area.

You are confirming my suspicion that the Bay Area is a strange and inexplicable place, not to be taken as a norm except unto itself.
Sounds like most the people you know live in suburban or rural areas, which makes sense that they would all need cars. But with cities that provide alternatives to driving, people that live in walkable inner city neighborhoods and downtowns aren't all going to need cars and the cost of parking is often times expensive to build. It makes more sense for a developer to build a third of the amount of parking per unit, then rent the spaces out to tenants, rather than have a 2/3 empty garage costing the developer a fortune for people not using the parking spaces.
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:12 AM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,864,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Sounds like most the people you know live in suburban or rural areas, which makes sense that they would all need cars. But with cities that provide alternatives to driving, people that live in walkable inner city neighborhoods and downtowns aren't all going to need cars and the cost of parking is often times expensive to build. It makes more sense for a developer to build a third of the amount of parking per unit, then rent the spaces out to tenants, rather than have a 2/3 empty garage costing the developer a fortune for people not using the parking spaces.
Not always. Not everyone wants to rent(some people want to own houses or condos) and not all renters will put up with a lack of parking. For many people a lack of parking can be a deal breaker. Now there are some neighborhoods where people will put up with it but there are plenty of people who either need their cars or are unwilling to do without them and if an developer does not build at least enough parking for them they will rent elsewhere. Garage space can help sell the property.
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:16 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,048,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Not always. Not everyone wants to rent(some people want to own houses or condos) and not all renters will put up with a lack of parking. For many people a lack of parking can be a deal breaker. Now there are some neighborhoods where people will put up with it but there are plenty of people who either need their cars or are unwilling to do without them and if an developer does not build at least enough parking for them they will rent elsewhere. Garage space can help sell the property.
True, but the earlier conversation was referring to mandating developers to provide parking rather then allowing builders to build whatever parking they wish.
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,567,055 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Not always. Not everyone wants to rent(some people want to own houses or condos) and not all renters will put up with a lack of parking. For many people a lack of parking can be a deal breaker. Now there are some neighborhoods where people will put up with it but there are plenty of people who either need their cars or are unwilling to do without them and if an developer does not build at least enough parking for them they will rent elsewhere. Garage space can help sell the property.
Parking isn't an all or nothing issue. Condos don't need a parking spot for every unit, if one buys a condo, they should also have to buy the parking spot when living in more urban areas.

Single family homes can include garages if the person building the house wants to put one in. Though typically a driveway is plenty.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:50 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,034 posts, read 102,707,476 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
True, but the earlier conversation was referring to mandating developers to provide parking rather then allowing builders to build whatever parking they wish.
If developers were allowed to do whatever they wish, they'd provide no parking and the streets would be congested with the resident's cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Parking isn't an all or nothing issue. Condos don't need a parking spot for every unit, if one buys a condo, they should also have to buy the parking spot when living in more urban areas.

Single family homes can include garages if the person building the house wants to put one in. Though typically a driveway is plenty.
If you live in Portland, or even NYC, that may be true. Those of us who live where there are real winters would beg to differ.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,567,055 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
If developers were allowed to do whatever they wish, they'd provide no parking and the streets would be congested with the resident's cars.



If you live in Portland, or even NYC, that may be true. Those of us who live where there are real winters would beg to differ.
Depends on where you live, not all of the country gets what you call real winters. Even then I have seen plenty of homes without garages in cities that get real winters.
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