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Old 04-07-2014, 10:50 PM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,349,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
Centralization of business and residences has always been a natural occurrence since human civilization began.
Only initially - then they begin moving out.


Quote:
The government never told people to coalesce into cities, they did it on their own. Why is this? Because people like efficiency, and you get efficiency by consolidation, and consolidation leads to centralization.
No one said "government told people to coalesce into cities". Not efficiency for the person - not efficiency in many ways. Centralization causes congestion, volatile economics, among many other problems.

Quote:
Natural growth isn't likely to be "distributed" but rather will concentrate within the closest convenient distance of those that it is involved with.
Not true at all. Natural growth is distributed and some growth specifically targets distribution in order to grab different market share. There may be some initial proximity/collection of a few businesses but the "business district" doesn't house all businesses.

Quote:
To have distributed workplaces would be going against the established grain of cities and centralization, and would thus require a government mandate, which you are so clearly opposed to.
Puhlease. Even today much to the chagrin of the "planning" crowd, people work someplace besides downtown. Workplaces are spread throughout the city.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,351 posts, read 7,507,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I came across a great article and facts that show how many people use transit everyday and figured it would be good for those on this site to say why they use transit and what could be done to improve transit quality and the use of transit in general and specifically where you may be located.

As Gas Prices Fluctuate, Support for Mass Transit Rises - Eric Jaffe - The Atlantic Cities

Public Transportation Benefits
The point is simple: When the mechanism of supply and demand, driven by the availability of physical resources (free from the threat of "public" confiscation) and the public's desire to conserve cash (which is merely the most liquid form of personal resources), is allowed to function without political interference, the rest will take care of itself, as is currently happening, and has for many years, in all but the most blighted urban areas.

We don't need a clique of Politically Correct do-gooders to make these decisions for us; their only real goal is the aggrandizement of the power to which they are addicted.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 04-08-2014 at 01:05 AM..
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Only initially - then they begin moving out.



No one said "government told people to coalesce into cities". Not efficiency for the person - not efficiency in many ways. Centralization causes congestion, volatile economics, among many other problems.


Not true at all. Natural growth is distributed and some growth specifically targets distribution in order to grab different market share. There may be some initial proximity/collection of a few businesses but the "business district" doesn't house all businesses.


Puhlease. Even today much to the chagrin of the "planning" crowd, people work someplace besides downtown. Workplaces are spread throughout the city.
This whole post is incorrect and ignores the history of cities in general. Yes today business can be found throughout a metro, but they are centralized to downtowns, office parks, and industrial zones.

And unless you live in a very rural part of the country, you life in some form of centralized lifestyle.
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
This whole post is incorrect and ignores the history of cities in general. Yes today business can be found throughout a metro, but they are centralized to downtowns, office parks, and industrial zones.
distributed "throughout a metro" is not centralized

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
And unless you live in a very rural part of the country, you life in some form of centralized lifestyle.
Very presumptive and inaccurate, even in a city. To the extent there is any "centralization", the center would be the home/residence not some other location in the world. But then that would apply to everyone. Perhaps that why so many see the "urbanists" promoting downtowns and other locations as "centers" as, well, off-center.
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Old 04-08-2014, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I can definitely believe that, did you by any chance have a link that shows average commute times?
Here's one that shows mean commute times. There's also a Bloomberg link, but the "number of workers" field doesn't make sense to me.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea...mmuters_us.pdf

Longest Commutes: U.S. Cities - Bloomberg Best (and Worst)

I did my own calculation using the most recent Census data. By MSA, I wanted to see the percentage of workers who needed more than 30 minutes to get to work. The rankings look like this:

Washington, DC - 56.3%
New York - 51.0%
Chicago - 49.26%
San Francisco - 48.28%
Atlanta - 47.9%
Boston - 47.5%
Houston - 46.2%
Miami - 45.4%
Los Angeles - 45.3%
Philadelphia - 43.6%
Dallas - 42.6%

So based on the data, sprawled out Dallas is clearly the winner here and compact, transit-oriented DC is the clear loser. Now let's look at the percentage of workers in each city that need more than 30 minutes to get to work.

New York - 67.6%
Chicago - 58.1%
Philadelphia - 53.4%
San Francisco - 52.5%
Boston - 51.4%
Los Angeles - 48.4%
Washington, DC - 45.6%
Miami - 40.7%
Houston - 40.5%
Dallas - 38.9%
Atlanta - 34.2%

When we talk about "sprawl" in these forums, people often paint the picture of some guy trapped in bumper-to-bumper traffic for hours on end (most likely in a jalopy with no air conditioning just to accentuate the suffering). But that's not what the reality looks like. The typical commuter in Dallas has a much breezier commute than the typical commuter in San Francisco or DC.
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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One would also think that the denser, walkable cities would have many more people with short commutes due to high rates of walking, transit ridership and cycling. Here is the number and percentage of commuters who need less than 15 minutes to get to work.

New York - 370,335 (10.3%)
Los Angeles - 287,452 (17.4%)
Houston - 209,412 (22.3%)
Chicago - 160,937 (13.8%)
Dallas - 123,233 (22.3%)
Philadelphia - 84,892 (14.6%)
San Francisco - 52,976 (12.7%)
Boston - 51,200 (16.2%)
Atlanta - 42,212 (22.3%)
Washington, DC - 41,201 (13.2%)
Miami - 30,018 (17.42%)

Atlanta actually has more people with "mini" commutes than DC. There are more people who get to work in less than 5 minutes in Atlanta than there are in DC. Also, who would have figured that sprawling Houston and Dallas would have so many more people with short commutes than Philadelphia?
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:09 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,988 posts, read 41,959,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
One would also think that the denser, walkable cities would have many more people with short commutes due to high rates of walking, transit ridership and cycling. Here is the number and percentage of commuters who need less than 15 minutes to get to work.
The issue is the % of people who have short walking/transit commutes are in select portions of transit-friendly commutes: these cities are all large and centralized, so only some parts in the center near job centers would have a short commute.

You'd need to look outside the US to find a good example of a city with high non-car usage and short commute times. A dense, not too big and somewhat less centralized city should have shorter walking/transit commute times. I suspect German and some other northern European cities would do well. Barcelona has a relatively short commute times.

Did a quick search, Barcelona has shorter commute times than Dallas

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1099351
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The issue is the % of people who have short walking/transit commutes are in select portions of transit-friendly commutes: these cities are all large and centralized, so only some parts in the center near job centers would have a short commute.

You'd need to look outside the US to find a good example of a city with high non-car usage and short commute times. A dense, not too big and somewhat less centralized city should have shorter walking/transit commute times. I suspect German and some other northern European cities would do well. Barcelona has a relatively short commute times.
Only 13.1% of Manhattan commuters have a commute that's less than 15 minutes. On an absolute number basis, it has fewer commuters that get to work in less than 15 minutes than Dallas does.
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Did a quick search, Barcelona has shorter commute times than Dallas

Cities with the shortest and longest commute times - SkyscraperCity
And Dallas has shorter commute times than Stockholm, Berlin and Madrid. So does Los Angeles for that matter.

Dallas' city limits is nearly 9 or 10 times the size of Barcelona's, so I'm not surprised the mean commute is longer (even though Dallas comes in an embarassing second place on that list). I'm more curious about the percentages. I wouldn't be surprised if a greater percentage of people in Dallas have sub-5 minute commutes.
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:22 AM
 
1,709 posts, read 1,674,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Only initially - then they begin moving out.
They only move out after enough people have moved in to cause the agglomeration in question to reach critical mass at its current boundaries. Then, people simply expand the agglomeration. When people moved out to the suburbs, they didnt just move to some random space in the middle of nowhere, did they? No, they stayed close to their cities.
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