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Old 04-19-2014, 11:09 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Maybe the person who posted this fallacious information in the first place could support his argument with real data instead of anecdotes. We can all give anecdotes till the end of time.
Again, I mentioned my own post gave information on the subject. Or you find real data, too since you're stating it's fallacious.

I don't know how much Boston suburbs restrict apartment building, however previous large minimum lot sizes have used most available land.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:11 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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^^I want to see concrete data on most suburban municipalities around the country, e.g. all 50 states. The person making the statement should support it.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Structure parking (non-surface) is expensive to build, it's also a waste of money for a parking space to sit empty with no revenue attach to it. The parking requirements also make it clumsy to build housing on small or akwardly-sized lots, driving up costs. Don't you think a student actually lives in that area might know a bit more of what's going on? A solution for student areas would be unbundle parking from rental buildings, so the student who have cars can buy parking separately. For the non-car owners, the parking requirements are a bit of nuisance that just add to the housing expense.

I know Ithaca had a big fuss over building an apartment building in a student area without parking, the site location made it difficult to provide parking and the idea was to use the first floor for a grocery store. There wasn't much street parking available nearby anyway, so few students with a car would choose such a place. If they did, I'm not sure why it's the city's problem. The zoning board turned it down, but the result afterwards was removing the parking minimums for (some?) of the city.
So this developer seems to have parking unbundled. I don't know how much it cost in that building, but one of their next projects currently in sales has parking spots for $15,000. Even surface parking wouldn't be that cheap in a relatively desirable area if you take into account the cost of land. If land costs $2m/acre, that's about $15,000 for 300sf of land dedicated to a parking spot (including associated access lanes). That's about how much vacant serviced residential land sold for in my parents' Toronto suburb. My college town is in a lower cost metro than Toronto, but this particular neighbourhood has a pretty good location within the metro (while my parents' suburb is pretty average location wise) and the zoning allows developers to build pretty dense which also likely helps land values.

And that $15,000 parking spot is only about $50/sf compared to about $300/sf for the residential space in the same building. Parking is cheaper to build per sf than residential, but still, I don't think $15,000 is unreasonable.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:19 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
^^I want to see concrete data on most suburban municipalities around the country, e.g. all 50 states.
That would be a very difficult to reseach.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:24 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
That would be a very difficult to reseach.
Yes, it would.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:32 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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In any case, I'll say without bothering to do research, that restrictive apartment zoning is rather common in suburbs in the Northeast. You'll get spots here and there where apartments are allowed, but mostly it's zoned for single family. Even in some cities across the country, that's often the case. I made a post on this with links, please read it if you're interested in the subject.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
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So looking at cost per sf and price to rent ratios in my area.

In my parents' suburb, there's some houses that have a for sale and for rent listing at the same time.

New 8000 sf foot mansion (teardown) on 0.4 acres near downtown.
$3,150,000
$15,000 rent

So
$1.88/sf to rent
$394/sf to buy
17.5 buy/rent ratio
W2867720, 1223 SPRUCELEA DR, Oakville, Ontario * L6J2E7
W2880711, 1223 SPRUCELEA DR, Oakville, Ontario * L6J2E7

Older (1980s?) 1800 sf condo on the main arterial near the freeway and a community college.
$345,900 + $799/month condo fees
$2,100 rent
$1.17/sf to rent
$192/sf + $0.44/sf/month condo fees
22.5 buy/rent ratio after subtracting condo fees from rent revenue
2069866, 1230 Marlborough Court - 410, Oakville, Ontario * L6H3K6
2069868, 1230 Marlborough Court - 410, Oakville, Ontario * L6H3K6

Older (1960s?) 1243 sf apartment converted to condo near a main street and train station.
$209,000 +$729/month condo fees
$1,550 rent
$1.25/sf to rent
$168/sf + $0.59/sf/month condo fees
21.2 buy/rent ratio
2067963, 20 SPEERS Road - 506, OAKVILLE, Ontario * L6K3R5
W2857730, #506 - 20 SPEERS RD, Oakville, Ontario * L6K3R5

Had a bit of a tougher time finding greenfield homes both for sale and for rent with square footage listed, but was able to find two similar homes to compare. Both are 3700 sf, brand new, and on relatively small lots for a big house (about 0.15 acres).
$1,189,000
$4,500 rent
$1.22/sf to rent
$321/sf to buy
22.0 buy/rent ratio
W2875428, 190 MCWILLIAMS CRES, Oakville, Ontario * L6M0W5
2070027, 3212 Larry Crescent , Oakville, Ontario * L6M0T1

For other properties with less complete info, it looks like $1.0-1.5/sf for monthly rent depending on age and quality and 22 buy/rent ratios is still roughly where it's at.

The suburb's downtown is more expensive and upscale. This is a 4040 sf semi detached home.
$1,895,000
$9,000 rent
$2.23/sf to rent
$469/sf to buy
17.5 buy/rent
Homes for Sale in Old Oakville, Oakville, Ontario, Canada | 360 Lakeshore Road East Listed by Kirsten Leggat, Sales Representative, The Invidiata Team
Many other condos and townhouses nearby are similar, if not more expensive. One condo tried to sell for $1000/sf. That didn't work out, but there's still another condo selling for around $700/sf.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,763,081 times
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2 bedroom 852 sf condo in Downtown Toronto

$629,900
$2,900
$3.40/sf rent
$739/sf + $0.63/sf/month condo fees
22.2 buy/rent ratio
C2872332, #3107 - 375 KING ST W, Toronto, Ontario * M5V1K5
C2825841, #3107 - 375 KING ST W, Toronto, Ontario * M5V1K5

High buy/rent ratios suggest housing is overpriced and that there's a lot of speculation going on. Although I'm still getting ratios around 22, an IMF report suggests it was 35 for Toronto, so unless rents skyrocketed or prices crashed (I don't think they did...), it seems like IMF's numbers are wrong, or at least misleading. Maybe they just compared average cost of all homes to average rent for all units, and didn't account for the fact that rental properties are usually less high end or smaller units.

1 bedroom + den 640 sf condo just outside Downtown Toronto.

$329,999
$1,750
$2.73/sf rent
$516/sf +0.56/sf/month condo fees
19.8 buy/rent ratio
C2849248, #302 - 150 EAST LIBERTY ST, Toronto, Ontario * M6K3R5
C2861351, #302 - 150 EAST LIBERTY ST, Toronto, Ontario * M6K3R5

The cost per sf for this condo is at the lower end for new construction in the core, while the 2 bedroom one is more mid-high end. The most expensive condos, mainly located in Yorkville, sell for over $1000/sf and rent for over $4/sf.

For the low rise urban neighbourhoods of Toronto, it seems to be around $2/sf rent or $400/sf to buy, but it's hard to say exactly since square footage is usually provided only for condos and new homes (and only big SFHs). Some of the big luxury homes in North Toronto can get over $700/sf.
This one is renting for a little under $2/sf.
C2881088, 75 ST CLEMENTS AVE, Toronto, Ontario * M4R1H1

New condos get down to about $2/sf in the suburbs to rent, and around $400/sf if not a bit less to buy. Older condos and apartments can get significantly cheaper as seen for some of the ones in Oakville (and there are cheaper suburbs). I'd say that around $250/sf purchase cost is about as low as it gets for SFH, and about $1/sf monthly rent. The working class inner suburbs aren't that cheap, because the SFH housing often has a lower built density which means higher land costs, plus the location is actually not that bad in terms of access to jobs. I think it's more like the people who live there can't afford to take long commutes (might rely on transit), while the ones who live in more distant suburbs are willing to drive further in exchange for newer homes for similar or lower price/sf.
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,763,081 times
Reputation: 1616
Here in my college town, it seems to be around $1.0/sf to rent, sometimes a bit more, with a rather modest premium for centrally located units. Buying is around $150-250/sf for single family, a little more for centrally located apartments/condos, maybe up to $400/sf for new high end ones. Buy/rent ratio is around 20.
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Old 04-19-2014, 07:42 PM
 
3,269 posts, read 3,006,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
Cars have nothing to do with it. Transit really has nothing to do with it either.

In a lot of suburban municipalities around the country there is no zoning for multi-family or townhouse units whether it's in a suburban "garden apartment" type format or not. It's usually on purpose and it's a huge part of the problem.

It's been in the NJ courts for almost 30 years now. You can research Mt. Laurel I and Mt. Laurel II.
The NJ supreme court housing rulings effectively removed a lot of the building restrictions in practice.

The way they work is that towns have to have a certain amount of affordable housing - and most of the nicer ones don't - and if they don't meet that requirement developers can sue the town to be able to build it regardless of local zoning. So what happens is, developers buy land, threaten to sue the town to build affordable housing unless they can ignore local zoning to build whatever they want (which is almost always dense, market-rate luxury housing using as much of the land as possible), and the town then complies because hey, it's better than the alternative.
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