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Old 10-17-2014, 01:20 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post

Would you suggest that the amount of amenities that are walkable on a regular basis and walked to by many or most is significant there. Is that the normal mode?
Yes. I think this is the best measure.

Quote:
Let me tell you, I'm so tired from working and thinking about ebola and the flu and whatnot, I don't really get what you're asking. "Many or most" of what group? There are >300 million people in the US. If it's important to me to live near my church and I'm a Mormon, I'd live in my neighborhood.
In a neighborhood. If few are walking and almost everyone drives it probably everyone drives, it's unlikely to be walkable and certainly isn't a walking city. instead looking at subjective characteristics, just look at places where people do walk.

Last edited by nei; 10-17-2014 at 01:55 AM..
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:33 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Originally Posted by nei View Post
Again, people criticized it because Phoenix is such a car oriented city, I couldn't figure out it could say much about an actually walkable place.
Interesting words coming from one who's never been there. Who says it's "such a car oriented city"? A bunch of posters on City-Data? The neighborhoods studied were walkable according to the researchers, who were conveniently there.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:38 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Yes. I think this is the best measure.



In a neighborhood. If few are walking and almost everyone drives it probably everyone drives, it's unlikely to be walkable and certainly isn't a walking city. instead looking at subjective characteristics, just look at places where people do walk.
I didn't know we were trying to define "walkable neighborhood". According to the thread title and OP, we're not.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 10-17-2014 at 08:33 AM..
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Duluth, GA
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Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
I guess I am told...
That seems to be how that last 40 pages of this thread have gone.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Since you passive aggressively called me out, I'll chime in.

You confuse what discourages walking with things which prohibit it entirely. Of course people can walk across parking lots. Or curb cuts. Or through or past a variety of things. They're not impassible, but they do inhibit walking. When we have certain features or combinations thereof, walking is discouraged.

In a walkable place, it's not strange to walk half a mile between shops. Quite the opposite, the stroll can be a kind of pleasure or entertainment--window shopping. What we see, however. in shopping centers where stores are separated by large areas of parking is that many people will re-park nearer the second destination. The parking lot doesn't prohibit, it inhibits.

And that's the core of the discussion when it comes to what makes a space walkable. It's not just about what people can do. It's about the things people actually do. We have to consider people as they are, not as we'd like them to be.
I was just reading an example of something similar in book last night which shows how human psychology matters in these things. If you draw a face with eyes onto a wall, people change their behavior, acting as if they are being watched.

If something as small as putting up a face with eyes on a wall changes the behavior of people, I don't see why it's surprising that major changes in the built structure of the outdoors will make people either more, or less apt to walk, no matter how close or far away the amenities actually are.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:47 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Specifically regarding parking lots, it's not just the speed. In no particular order:

1) The whole environment is hostile to the pedestrian. It's an uncomfortable place, and, as such, people don't like to spend time there. People don't linger, which is a hallmark of walkability.
2) Parking lots create gaps between destinations, making walking less valuable to the pedestrian. At the extreme, lots of parking can really spread out an area.
3) Parking creates physical barriers to walking between destinations. People really, really, really like to walk in nearly-straight lines between destinations. But, parking and the attributes thereof can actually or effectively force people to take a circuitous path.

Again, it doesn't matter that you think it's silly that people here complain about walking through parking lots. How you or I or anyone thinks people should act is 100% irrelevant. What matters is how people actually act in any given location. And if walking through a parking lot didn't matter, there wouldn't be so much literature studying how long people search for parking close to the door instead of parking at the first available space. In reality, people will spend longer looking for a "good" spot than they would have spent walking from the first available space. Parking lots have a huge impact on walking.
1) You're right, people don't linger in a parking lot, though I do occasionally see people talking to each other in the grocery store parking lot. People do linger in the stores in the strip malls, though, just as they "linger" in stores in malls and downtown-style shopping areas. "Lingering" on city streets is usually considered "loitering", unless you're referring to some freak show like the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder. I think of the downtown area of my hometown. There was very little "lingering" going on.

2) Usually a parking lot is in front of the store/strip mall, with a sidewalk by the storefronts so one can walk from store to store.

3) See above.

As for " there wouldn't be so much literature studying how long people search for parking close to the door instead of parking at the first available space"-again, drawing from my own experiences of living in a town with a downtown shopping area, I could write my own blog about how people spent a lot of time trying to scout out a place close to the main store they were planning to visit, and sometimes driving round and round looking for an unexpired parking meter, and call it a "study".

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 10-17-2014 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Interesting words coming from one who's never been there. Who says it's "such a car oriented city"? A bunch of posters on City-Data? The neighborhoods studied were walkable according to the researchers, who were conveniently there.
And, as we've seen in this thread, some people have a very low threshold of what makes somewhere walkable.

Speaking for myself, I don't disagree with the study. The neighborhoods they studied were probably quite walkable, relative to the rest of Phoenix. Instead, it seems they determined that the benefits of walkability were overridden by other factors, such as crime.

Quote:
benefits of built environments may be offset by social characteristics.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
1) You're right, people don't linger in a parking lot, though I do occasionally see people talking to each other in the grocery store parking lot. People do linger in the stores in the strip malls, though, just as they "linger" in stores in malls and downtown-style shopping areas. "Lingering" on city streets is usually considered "loitering", unless you're referring to some freak show like the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder. I think of the downtown area of my hometown. There was very little "lingering" going on.

2) Usually a parking lot is in front of the store/strip mall, with a sidewalk by the storefronts so one can walk from store to store.

3) See above.

As for " there wouldn't be so much literature studying how long people search for parking close to the door instead of parking at the first available space"-again, drawing from my own experiences of living in a town with a downtown shopping area, I could write my own blog about how people spent a lot of time trying to scout out a place close to the main store they were planning to visit, and sometimes driving round and round looking for an unexpired parking meter, and call it a "study".
Example of #2 and #3 https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.3...16512&t=h&z=17. It's called "The Plant," it's relatively new, and it is various destinations separated by oceans of parking. Also, here and here by the airport in San Jose. Then there's Westgate Mall, Westgate West, Almaden Plaza, and on and on. Destinations are separated within each shopping center by parking and parking separates the shopping center from the local area.

Loitering is, simply, when someone is lingering and the property owner would rather they not. That said, lingering is still a hallmark of a walkable place or space.
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Old 10-17-2014, 04:21 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
And, as we've seen in this thread, some people have a very low threshold of what makes somewhere walkable.

Speaking for myself, I don't disagree with the study. The neighborhoods they studied were probably quite walkable, relative to the rest of Phoenix. Instead, it seems they determined that the benefits of walkability were overridden by other factors, such as crime.
Well, thanks. Someone gets it anyway!

The researchers did not determine that the benefits were over-ridden by other factors, they said they may be over-riden by other factors. They did not study why these people had higher rates of obesity. Now that is one among many criticisms of this study coming from this forum, but that is actually the way real research is done, one topic at a time.
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Old 10-17-2014, 04:36 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Example of #2 and #3 https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.3...16512&t=h&z=17. It's called "The Plant," it's relatively new, and it is various destinations separated by oceans of parking. Also, here and here by the airport in San Jose. Then there's Westgate Mall, Westgate West, Almaden Plaza, and on and on. Destinations are separated within each shopping center by parking and parking separates the shopping center from the local area.

Loitering is, simply, when someone is lingering and the property owner would rather they not. That said, lingering is still a hallmark of a walkable place or space.
We could all cherry-pick pictures about shopping areas. Smaller strip malls have less separation than the bigger ones.
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