U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-02-2014, 03:28 AM
 
Location: Philly, PA
358 posts, read 256,378 times
Reputation: 148

Advertisements

My friend works for US Airways Express and i heard since them and American Airlines merged...they are gonna cut down on the short distance flights from PHL and probably around the country also.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-02-2014, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
2,975 posts, read 4,077,563 times
Reputation: 1208
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
I know HSR (or even just sort-of-fast-rail) would be a big help but would investing in reliever airports also be helpful?

I'm thinking of places like Allentown, Harrisburg, Allaire, Mercer, Atlantic City, and New Castle . . . or is that just reshuffling the deck chairs?
People still have to get to/from these airports to their destinations/homes. The airports are located near major cities for a reason! Plus there are the issues of overlapping air traffic congestion.

In the short term, updating our air traffic control system to something like Heathrow has would be very beneficial.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2014, 05:56 AM
 
12,287 posts, read 15,181,947 times
Reputation: 8100
It is actually faster, considering security and ground transportation, to take the Acela for many short trips such as Philadelphia to New York. And they aren't that profitable for the airlines anyway.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2014, 08:25 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,952,939 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
It is actually faster, considering security and ground transportation, to take the Acela for many short trips such as Philadelphia to New York. And they aren't that profitable for the airlines anyway.
Yup. If we had just 125mph service from Raleigh up to Portland, ME and as far west as Cleveland with departures every 1-2 hours . . . just on the routes that already exist you'd see most of those short-hop flights disappear. All that's really missing from the scenario is more rail/airport connections.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2014, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Northville, MI
11,882 posts, read 11,154,496 times
Reputation: 6316
Part of the problem is that US is so vast and HSR just may not cut it. How can HSR potentially be faster to go from, say Baltimore to Indianapolis than a flight. Even via a HSR train, it would take close to 6 hours (plus time to travel to and from the train station). But a flight will only take 1-1.5 hours (Maybe 3 hours including security and getting to the airport). HSR works only within a 250 mile radius, which means that we should develop region specific systems than a national railroad like Amtrak.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2014, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
2,975 posts, read 4,077,563 times
Reputation: 1208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi from the Brunswicks View Post
Part of the problem is that US is so vast and HSR just may not cut it. How can HSR potentially be faster to go from, say Baltimore to Indianapolis than a flight. Even via a HSR train, it would take close to 6 hours (plus time to travel to and from the train station). But a flight will only take 1-1.5 hours (Maybe 3 hours including security and getting to the airport). HSR works only within a 250 mile radius, which means that we should develop region specific systems than a national railroad like Amtrak.
Ironically, I just checked flights from BWI to IND, and the fastest I could find was 3 1/2 hours with one stop, but most of the itineraries were longer than 4 hours, and some were longer than 6 hours! Now you can get nonstop from Dulles to IND, which takes around 1:45, of course, if you were in Baltimore getting out to Dulles is itself a quite a journey. Driving from Baltimore to Indianapolis takes around 9-10 hours, so let's say HSR 7-8 hours (can't go full speed over the mountains, for one thing...). Bottom line: you still wouldn't save much time, if any, compared to taking the plane.

However, HSR may be more reliable since it's not subject to air traffic and weather delays *anywhere* in the country, only local weather, which would have to be pretty severe to stop an HSR train. HSR can carry more people by just adding more train cars, one thing planes can't do. So I think there are still some advantages for having a Baltimore to Indianapolis HSR route, but the time savings are not going to be a factor. Of course, HSR is kind of last decade's technology...if you instead built meglev, then you're good to go (Shanghai's megalev operates at 268 mph and has broken 300 mph in tests)!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2014, 10:20 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,952,939 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi from the Brunswicks View Post
Part of the problem is that US is so vast and HSR just may not cut it. How can HSR potentially be faster to go from, say Baltimore to Indianapolis than a flight. Even via a HSR train, it would take close to 6 hours (plus time to travel to and from the train station). But a flight will only take 1-1.5 hours (Maybe 3 hours including security and getting to the airport). HSR works only within a 250 mile radius, which means that we should develop region specific systems than a national railroad like Amtrak.
This is strawman argument because no one is suggesting that we should build HSR to connect NYC and SF - obviously under virtually all conditions flying would be faster.

The US is vast but half of all Americans live within 300 miles of New York, LA or Chicago. The numbers go much higher when you include other expanding megalopolises like the Raleigh to Atlanta corridor, the Texas triangle, Cascadia, etc. The 3 busiest air routes in the country are between LA: and the Bay Area, Vegas, and Phoenix.

Still, most travel in the US is within regions, not between them and, obviously, for travel between most of them planes are preferable.

Real HSR (220 mph) is competitive with air travel for trips of under 500 miles. Baltimore to Indianapolis is just beyond that mark but even with the much slower US version (150mph) it's still fairly competitive for trips up to ~300 miles, ie, few people are going to use Acela to travel from Boston to DC but the majority of people not driving pick the train for the points in between.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-06-2014, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Chandler, AZ
5,802 posts, read 5,459,692 times
Reputation: 3113
Indy to Baltimore is a 70-minute flight on Southwest; how the heck is HSR going to compete with that?

I fly from LAX-PHX 3-4 times a year, and that flight from liftoff to touchdown routinely requires 49-52 minutes,, making HSR impractical, even given the flat as a bowling alley landscape between those two cities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-06-2014, 02:16 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,952,939 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv101 View Post
Indy to Baltimore is a 70-minute flight on Southwest; how the heck is HSR going to compete with that?
Do you live at the airport, behind the security checkpoint?

Quote:
I fly from LAX-PHX 3-4 times a year, and that flight from liftoff to touchdown routinely requires 49-52 minutes,, making HSR impractical, even given the flat as a bowling alley landscape between those two cities.
I'm gonna assume that you don't live at the airport and you have anywhere from a 30-60 minute drive to the airport. Then from the time you get dropped off you have a dwell time of about an hour or so and that's assuming that you don't have to check any bags. Then, if you're lucky, the plane departs on time and lands on time so that's 50 minutes. But the 50 minutes is the time it takes for your plane to pull up to the gate. It's gonna be another 15 minutes before you're walking through the terminal. Then you probably have 45-60 minutes before you make it to your final destination.

So your total trip time is more like 3.5 - 4 hours depending on exactly where you're coming from and exactly where you're going.

HSR would have a transit time of 2 hours . . . and since major train stations are typically in the middle of a region (as opposed to on the edge of it) most people are closer to the station. You don't need to check in and don't need to go through security screening so you can show up 5 minutes before your departure and not have to worry about them closing the gate on you. You'd probably want to get there 15 mins early just to be on the safe side so we'll call your trip, couch-to-couch, 3.5 hours.

So yeah, true HSR is competitive with air travel for distances of up to 500 miles. 125mph service is competitive with air up to 300 miles.

Anyway, this is a thread about major delays at airports, specifically at airports in the Northeast that make a giant ripple causing delays all over the country . . . and what some possible solutions could be because more air traffic is clearly not a solution.

Last edited by drive carephilly; 05-06-2014 at 02:25 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2014, 01:28 AM
 
Location: Chandler, AZ
5,802 posts, read 5,459,692 times
Reputation: 3113
I live 25 minutes from LAX, and while all the airlines pad their schedules, HSR simply can't traverse the flat-as-a-billiard table desert out here fast enough to make fiscal sense, let alone the hills of Ohio and the mid-Atlantic states.

If a Southwest flight leaves LAX at 10 AM, I'll arrive at the airport at 9AM, and reach the waiting area within 20 minutes.

The Northeast has the density which HSR requires, plain & simple.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top