Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Wrong, Mike. Sprawl and "overpopulation" are not synonymous. You can have sprawling, depopulated areas, just as you can have non-sprawling populous areas? And immigration? What's that got to do with the topic at hand?
Behind every social issue lurks an illegal immigrant. At least to people like him. Sean Hannity, is that you?
K-Luv;2232834]Have you ever noticed that people in the suburbs pop out kids left and right but people in the city don't?
Lol!! This is the first time I've ever heard anyone imply that suburbanites crank out child after child at the expense of the urbanites.
Anyway, so what if they do as long as they are willing to love, support and raise their children?
Also, how many children are born out of wedlock in the cities vs the suburbs. That's a serious problem that doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.
OK, I'm practically brain-dead after a long day at work, but I'm going to try to respond to some of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j33
The whole 'skyscrapers or sprawl' is indeed a false dichotomy, at least for the Chicago area. There are large swaths of undeveloped land in our inner suburbs and the blighted parts of the city are losing population and loads of vacant lots. if the trends of development were changed, then these are the areas where single family homes and two and three-flats (with yards) could be built.
however there is a reason why people left these areas. The only way that this would ever happen outside my imagination is if somehow the crushing poverty and crime of these areas was eradicated. Until then, people will (rightfully) avoid moving their family to such areas.
... and no, you do not need a giant 5000sf mansion on an acre to raise kids. I'm from a family of six and grew up in a house that was less than 2000sf with a small yard (it was big enough for a swing-set in the back yard). But I also lived a block away from a park and 1/2 a mile away from the public pool (I could walk there). I think I turned out okay even though I had a share a room with my sister
So while I would very much like to see how development is practiced currently changed and think that it is detrimental to our society that it does. I realize that there are many factors that contribute to what we have now.
and no, I don't hate the suburbs, I just wish they were better thought out.
Not everyone in the suburbs lives in a 4-5000 sq. foot house on a two-acre lot. Here in Colorado, the norm is ~2000 sq. ft. for the house and about 8000 sq. feet (1/5 of an acre) for the lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by normie
These are all interesting responses. I think we have the beginning of a truly interesting dialogue.
BTW, my original thought about making sprawl illegal was simply a device to set up a hypothetical situation. An awkward device, at that. Also, for the record, I'm not trying to set up either/or solutions. Just becuase I listed a few examples of possible solutions does not limit us to a dichotomy. Let's discuss all sorts of solutions (short of killing people--that isn't a funny joke).
My point was to encourage people with many different points of view to explain their opinions and brainstorm solutions. Too many people get self righteous about the "morality" of their point of view, but have never spent any time considering the logistics behind their opinion. Frankly, I think it is immoral to judge other people before you have seriously considered practical issues, or the reasons behind the choices people make. We like to say we "hate" certain places or we "know all about" people who live in certain places. Too many of us have contempt prior to investigation. This thread is an attempt to encourage the investigation.
This has potential to be an interesting case study. What you really need to compare is number of housing units for sale within these cities vs. the number of housing units for sale in the suburbs. You've shown us dozens of beautiful homes in Scranton. What would be the challenges of suburban families who wanted to live there? How would you solve those problems.
Also, I appreciate the comments about non city dwellers using city resources such as hospitals, universities, and museums. This is a good topic--but once again, let's hear some ideas for possible solutions. Perhaps an extra fee for suburbanites who wish to use city resources?
Denver tried keeping suburbanites out of the libraries (to make a point, I think). Eventually, the state passed a scientific and cultural facilities tax (a sales tax) in the metro area to support these enterprises such as the libraries, museums, the Colorado Symphony (which prior to this tax was the Denver symphony), the Colorado Ballet, and many others including arts in the suburbs. As far as hospitals and universities, most are not municipally owned (though they are usually tax-exempt), so that is not an issue, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv
People would probably start having less children.
Have you ever noticed that people in the suburbs pop out kids left and right but people in the city don't? In part it is because school districts in the suburbs tend to be better but it is also a matter of safety. ANd it is also generally cheaper to live in a suburb so parents have more money to raise kids. Gullable parents actually believe that if they raise their children in the suburbs that they will some how be immune to drugs or gangs or satan. Yeah right!
As a parent, I don't think that's what parents think at all, and I don't think most parents are gullible. That's the "city mouse" argument, that we are all stupid and being led by some pied piper. The suburbs are, in many ways, better for raising children. The schools are almost always better. I know how to interpret test scores, I know they don't tell you much of anything. But suburban schools usually have more resources (money) than city schools. Crime tends to be lower in the burbs. They're not crime-free by any stretch, but they're safer. It's nice to have your own yard, where your kids can play while you're fixing dinner. Cuz as normie says, parents don't let their kids go to the park alone. Especially not when they're three years old. I am not especially worried about drugs, gangs, or satan.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 12-13-2007 at 07:41 PM..
Reason: typo, add infor about hospitals, etc.
OK, I'm practically brain-dead after a long day at work, but I'm going to try to respond to some of this.
LOL--I HEAR you on that one. That's the one problem with this post--too hard to write a snappy quick response. But, I'm glad you did, especially for the followiing interesting comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70
Denver tried keeping suburbanites out of the libraries (to make a point, I think). Eventually, the state passed a scientific and cultural facilities tax (a sales tax) in the metro area to support these enterprises such as the libraries, museums, the Colorado Symphony (which prior to this tax was the Denver symphony), the Colorado Ballet, and many others including arts in the suburbs. As far as hospitals and universities, most are not municipally owned (though they are usually tax-exempt), so that is not an issue, IMO..
Good final solution. But I can just imagine the chaos during the "Keep the Suburbanites Out of our Libraries" movement!!I'm sure there were a few few fiesty suburbanites who tried storming the main library, just to make a point right back! (Ahhh, Denver. It always was an intersting place...)
I remember back in 1977 they tried to put a halt to roadbuilding by making a point--they made all the busses free for 6 months on the theory that they could MAKE traffic go down and thus not need roads. Didn't work out the way they thought it would, but I loved riding the bus for free. Man, I went everywhere that year--sometimes just hopping on a bus to see where it would take me. Longmont, Littleton, who cared--it was FREE!
Good final solution. But I can just imagine the chaos during the "Keep the Suburbanites Out of our Libraries" movement!!I'm sure there were a few few fiesty suburbanites who tried storming the main library, just to make a point right back! (Ahhh, Denver. It always was an intersting place...)
I remember back in 1977 they tried to put a halt to roadbuilding by making a point--they made all the busses free for 6 months on the theory that they could MAKE traffic go down and thus not need roads. Didn't work out the way they thought it would, but I loved riding the bus for free. Man, I went everywhere that year--sometimes just hopping on a bus to see where it would take me. Longmont, Littleton, who cared--it was FREE!
LOL! That was a few years before I lived there. We moved here in 1980. When they started keeping suburbanites out of the library, they had guards posted who checked drivers' licenses. I don't know of any 'stormings', LOL! We lived in Denver when they started that nonsense, then moved to the burbs but still had active DPS cards, so we could still get in. It wasn't long after that they came up with this tax.
Hey PittNurse, speaking about Denver and sprawl solutions and all that...
I heard that Cinderella City was torn down and on the site they were going to build a "new town" that would be transit oriented and have a densely packed complex with houses, office building, and stores and green areas all together. This was considered an exciting smart growth project, but I never heard how it turned out. Do you know?
Hey PittNurse, speaking about Denver and sprawl solutions and all that...
I heard that Cinderella City was torn down and on the site they were going to build a "new town" that would be transit oriented and have a densely packed complex with houses, office building, and stores and green areas all together. This was considered an exciting smart growth project, but I never heard how it turned out. Do you know?
Yeah... that's already old news by now. About 5 years ago they tore the old mall in Englewood down and built a "new urbanist" style development and a mini park. It's right next to the light rail. The stores are all chain stores though, including Walmart, I think. I don't know if I'd call it a "new town," and I certainly wouldn't call the Englewood City Center "exciting," but it's better than the abandoned mall that was there before.
Hmmm, sounds like you believe in "if you build it, they will come..."
People don't just move to the suburbs and then "shaza-a-am" become consumed with a desire to have children.
People have children for a variety of reasons, being in a city won't change those reasons. And it won't change the desire to have children. A dwelling situation that was so extreme it actually influenced whether or not people had children would be considered inhumane.
Yes, you are correct but so am I. Having children + living in the suburbs go hand in hand. Granted, people have children for a variety of reasons it is just more common in the suburbs.
If you haven't noticed; if you are either single or childless (well, depending on age) then you would be sort of an anomaly in a suburban environment.
As a parent, I don't think that's what parents think at all, and I don't think most parents are gullible. That's the "city mouse" argument, that we are all stupid and being led by some pied piper. The suburbs are, in many ways, better for raising children. The schools are almost always better. I know how to interpret test scores, I know they don't tell you much of anything. But suburban schools usually have more resources (money) than city schools. Crime tends to be lower in the burbs. They're not crime-free by any stretch, but they're safer. It's nice to have your own yard, where your kids can play while you're fixing dinner. Cuz as normie says, parents don't let their kids go to the park alone. Especially not when they're three years old. I am not especially worried about drugs, gangs, or satan.
At first you discount my post, then you end up supporting it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Cinderella City
