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Old 04-29-2015, 07:41 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
The Americans With Disabilities act changed that. It used to be you could build to moderate levels without elevators; now you need them for anything above 1 story, which increases both space requirements and capital and operating costs.
Obviously a two-story house isn't required to have an elevator. Is any new multi-family building that is more than one floor really required to have an elevator?
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Old 04-30-2015, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
The Americans With Disabilities act changed that. It used to be you could build to moderate levels without elevators; now you need them for anything above 1 story, which increases both space requirements and capital and operating costs.
I think you're overstating the impact an elevator has on the overall cost of a building. Sure, an elevator is an added cost, but then you have fewer footings to dig, and less roof to buy and maintain, and so on.
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
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Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
While it may be easier to build out, it is neither difficult nor expensive to build mildly up (2-6 floors) to the level necessary to have major benefits to the local economy and governments, but it certainly is expensive to the economy as a whole and to local governments--who must supply services and maintain infrastructure--in the long-term to build wide and short and very low density.
The Americans With Disabilities act changed that. It used to be you could build to moderate levels without elevators; now you need them for anything above 1 story, which increases both space requirements and capital and operating costs.
You're correct that elevators do change the math. But my point was that mid-rise construction is valuable to the city and local economy, not especially expensive (wood construction if no parking garage is necessary), and completely missing from the low-vs-skyscraper comparison.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
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Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
This is generally true. I would add some caveats. Businesses benefit from a certain density of people common to CBDs, and this density bonus is lost on business centers in the very-low-density suburbs. Being in the suburbs, if they are fairly sprawling, also adds back in other transportation costs as the car goes from a convenience to a necessity for mobility.

Most businesses are SMBs and many are just outright small. And a huge chunk of our economy is small-scale retail and service. The benefits of cutting-edge telepresence tech are lost on these businesses. While someone like GSK, GM, or Dell has a lot to gain by this tech, an office of 10 or 20 people may not have a lot to gain or the costs may simply fail to pencil out. For most small businesses location--being "connected"-- still plays a role.
I think that you are exaggerating the importance of "connecting". Who does an office of 10 or 20 people have to "connect" to on a regular, collaborative basis that they can't deal with via email? I'm thinking of an accounting firm or an insurance firm, and I can't see a real need here to be in such regular and frequent contact with other businesses that the firms need to be in close proximity. Now, a legal firm that has to make court appearances would likely need to be in the CBD if the courts are located there, but I don't see a pressing need for other types of businesses to do so. This isn't 1965 where "high tech" means an electric typewriter, a multi-line switchboard, a dictaphone, and a messenger service.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:37 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
I think that you are exaggerating the importance of "connecting". Who does an office of 10 or 20 people have to "connect" to on a regular, collaborative basis that they can't deal with via email? I'm thinking of an accounting firm or an insurance firm, and I can't see a real need here to be in such regular and frequent contact with other businesses that the firms need to be in close proximity. Now, a legal firm that has to make court appearances would likely need to be in the CBD if the courts are located there, but I don't see a pressing need for other types of businesses to do so. This isn't 1965 where "high tech" means an electric typewriter, a multi-line switchboard, a dictaphone, and a messenger service.
Too True! Heck, DH's office is in a small business park, and they have nothing to do with the other businesses there. Everyone is busy doing their own thing.

Ditto my office, in a small office complex attached to a hospital. We do not "connect" with the other doctor's offices there. We do "connect" some with the lab and the X-ray departments.
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Old 04-30-2015, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Most businesses are SMBs and many are just outright small. And a huge chunk of our economy is small-scale retail and service. The benefits of cutting-edge telepresence tech are lost on these businesses. While someone like GSK, GM, or Dell has a lot to gain by this tech, an office of 10 or 20 people may not have a lot to gain or the costs may simply fail to pencil out. For most small businesses location--being "connected"-- still plays a role.
I think that you are exaggerating the importance of "connecting". Who does an office of 10 or 20 people have to "connect" to on a regular, collaborative basis that they can't deal with via email? I'm thinking of an accounting firm or an insurance firm, and I can't see a real need here to be in such regular and frequent contact with other businesses that the firms need to be in close proximity. Now, a legal firm that has to make court appearances would likely need to be in the CBD if the courts are located there, but I don't see a pressing need for other types of businesses to do so. This isn't 1965 where "high tech" means an electric typewriter, a multi-line switchboard, a dictaphone, and a messenger service.
I'm not exaggerating, but I think you misunderstood what I meant by a business being connected, which I used in relation to location as a matter of both geographic location and the built form (ie, density of human activity) at that location.

If you think that even a small business has nothing to gain from moderate density, the economic data isn't on your side, as density doublings cause 2-4% accelerations in economic output. While a small business may seem to operate in a vacuum with little need to interact with the nearby world, being in a more dense location (not manhattan, mind you, just more dense than, say, 1 story sprawling office parks) offers a richer pool of employees, suppliers, consumers, and ideas.

My point is that location still matters a lot more than what cutting-edge technology can provide. E-mail, or even VPNs, well-built intranets, or telepresence, all have their place to help offer flexibility and efficiency to businesses, but come with their own initial and ongoing costs and aren't an antidote to being far removed from a CBD or CBD-like densities of human activity.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:10 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
I'm not exaggerating, but I think you misunderstood what I meant by a business being connected, which I used in relation to location as a matter of both geographic location and the built form (ie, density of human activity) at that location.

If you think that even a small business has nothing to gain from moderate density, the economic data isn't on your side, as density doublings cause 2-4% accelerations in economic output. While a small business may seem to operate in a vacuum with little need to interact with the nearby world, being in a more dense location (not manhattan, mind you, just more dense than, say, 1 story sprawling office parks) offers a richer pool of employees, suppliers, consumers, and ideas.

My point is that location still matters a lot more than what cutting-edge technology can provide. E-mail, or even VPNs, well-built intranets, or telepresence, all have their place to help offer flexibility and efficiency to businesses, but come with their own initial and ongoing costs and aren't an antidote to being far removed from a CBD or CBD-like densities of human activity.
What's your source for that? In large metro areas, most employees live within a reasonable distance of the office, with a few outliers. Usually these outliers had a house somewhere else when they got hired. The business I work for orders many of its supplies, and even though we're a two story office building with nothing but other health care businesses in our complex, we manage. DH's complex doesn't include any retail either, to the best of my knowledge.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
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I'm with Katarina.

Organizations and businesses, even small ones, are more likely to need regional or national connections rather than local ones. For example, I work in administrative IT for a small community college. NONE of our support comes from anybody local except our own staff. Our enterprise software is from a national company located near Philadelphia. The group that customizes that software specifically to fit NYS law is located in Oneonta, NY, about 250 miles away. The group that provides tech support for our servers is located in Buffalo, 90 miles away. We don't choose software and hardware vendors by proximity, and even if we did, the physical material that we buy is delivered to the college.

Collaboration, when it's done, between/among businesses or organizations or between/among individuals within these entities, is not necessarily done on the basis of location but on the basis of interest. In a large medical research facility, researchers interested the same problems may very well share information and collaborate, but so can researchers from different parts of the same metro or the country or even the world. Through regional, state, and national meetings and conferences, professionals make contacts and network with their peers. If you are a professional and only think in terms of your local area, you are limiting yourself.
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
I think you're overstating the impact an elevator has on the overall cost of a building. Sure, an elevator is an added cost, but then you have fewer footings to dig, and less roof to buy and maintain, and so on.
A single two-floor passenger elevator costs about $75,000 installed and has continuous operating expenses. You can build a LOT of commercial roof for that price.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
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Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
A single two-floor passenger elevator costs about $75,000 installed and has continuous operating expenses. You can build a LOT of commercial roof for that price.
Based on my--admittedly limited--experience, that seems a little high, but maybe it's a regional thing. And yes, that will buy a lot of roof. But, in the overall picture, it would only buy an additional 500-750 square feet of building. (That may sound like a lot, but it's not that significant when you consider that 10,000 square feet is still a small office building.)
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